[avoscill]

A few days ago I have been strucked by a discussion at a nearby table, where the following simple auction occured: North opened 1♣, East overcalled 1♠, South and West passed, and North rebid 1NT, which ended the auction. It turned out that North had a 18-19 balanced hand, and poor South was heavily critisized for not having raised partner to game, with his 7-8 count (he didn't respond 1NT in the first place because he didn't have a spade stopper). To me, North's position, the moment he bid 1NT, was one of balancing, and his strength range for that bid should be the normal 12-14 (they play strong notrump opening, 15-17). Since a few good players held very strong opinions about North showing 18-19, I am curious about what more expert players think about it.

[petterb]

1NT shows 18-19. Why would you want to bid 1NT with 12-14 when partner could not bid over 1♠?

[kenrexford]

Ditto. This is wildly different from balancing opposite a partner who did not have enough or the right shape to overcall opposite a partner who did not open. Besides, whatever the logic might be in the abstract, the standard meaning of the 1NT reopen s 18.to 19. 19 to 20 if 16 to 18 1NT opening.

[the hog]

1NT in this seat now shows a strong hand.

[Fluffy]

actually a 1NT rebid shows 18-19 whenever pass is an option. Pass is the default bid with 12-14 balanced on your second round, you have already shown the main info of your hand: you have opening values. Supporting partner takes preference over pass, but you get the point.

[GreenMan]

In general, if there's an overcall either before or after responder passes, opener basically needs 6 extra points to bid again, since he has to make up for responder's possible zero count; he's essentially bidding for two now. (Reopening doubles are another matter, but IMHO you need at least some extras for those as well.)

[gwnn]

This is quite common actually. The only question is whether you also want to do it on semi balanced hands a touch weaker as well like KJx x KJx AKJTxx. In Weak NT systems also some strong NT's should probably be included.

[avoscill]

Thank you for the explanations. I suppose my mistake was to think that responder requires a spade stopper in order to bid 1NT, and at least 10 points to speak at the two level.

[jeffford76]

avoscill, on 2014-January-10, 17:20, said:

I suppose my mistake was to think that responder requires a spade stopper in order to bid 1NT, and at least 10 points to speak at the two level.

These things are both true, basically, so I'm not sure that you have understood what people said in this thread.

[Vampyr]

jeffford76, on 2014-January-10, 17:41, said:

These things are both true, basically, so I'm not sure that you have understood what people said in this thread.

Quite; no one said anything about your initial pass and you should not rethink it.

[johnu]

Don't they still teach that 1NT in this situation is stronger than a strong NT in beginning bridge classes?

[Vampyr]

johnu, on 2014-January-10, 19:54, said:

Don't they still teach that 1NT in this situation is stronger than a strong NT in beginning bridge classes?

It's a fairly low-frequency auction; maybe they just don't bother.

[MrAce]

johnu, on 2014-January-10, 19:54, said:

Don't they still teach that 1NT in this situation is stronger than a strong NT in beginning bridge classes?

Not in beginning classes, you have too many things to cover and practice b4 this. But it may depend on what u meant by beginning classes.

[MickyB]

avoscill, on 2014-January-10, 17:20, said:

Thank you for the explanations. I suppose my mistake was to think that responder requires a spade stopper in order to bid 1NT, and at least 10 points to speak at the two level.

Responder can also raise or double with less or stretch to bid at the two-level with a six-card suit, so there aren't many hands that have to pass over an overcall with decent values.

[MickyB]

Fluffy, on 2014-January-10, 02:56, said:

actually a 1NT rebid shows 18-19 whenever pass is an option.

1C P 1H 1S
1N

It's far from universal for this to show 18-19. Some play that it shows a "good weak NT with a stop"; others play it to show 14-16 or so, primarily to cater to 4225.

[GreenMan]

MickyB, on 2014-January-11, 07:43, said:

1C P 1H 1S
1N

It's far from universal for this to show 18-19. Some play that it shows a "good weak NT with a stop"; others play it to show 14-16 or so, primarily to cater to 4225.

Completely different auction. The OP and subsequent posts are about auctions where responder has PASSED. (EDIT: never mind, I misread this part of the conversation.)

[MickyB]

GreenMan, on 2014-January-11, 12:03, said:

Completely different auction. The OP and subsequent posts are about auctions where responder has PASSED.

I believe the post I quoted was discussing other auctions as well.

[GreenMan]

MickyB, on 2014-January-11, 12:09, said:

I believe the post I quoted was discussing other auctions as well.

Ah right; my mistake. I agree with you, then.

[avoscill]

jeffford76, on 2014-January-10, 17:41, said:

These things are both true, basically, so I'm not sure that you have understood what people said in this thread.

Now I'm again puzzled, for responder will have to pass with, say,
♠xxx
♥KQx
♦Kxxx
♣xxx

because he doesn't stop spades, or
♠xx
♥KQxxxx
♦Kxx
♣xx

because not strong enough; and opener too will have to pass, holding
♠AKx
♥JTxx
♦Qxx
♣QJx

because he needs 18-19 hcp. To me It doesn't sound good to let them play 1♠, with strength equally divided.

Does this treatment have something to do with probabilities? Maybe, on this auction, opener is going to be 18-19 balanced more often than 12-14 balanced?

[Endymion77]

avoscill, on 2014-January-11, 17:52, said:

Now I'm again puzzled, for responder will have to pass with, say,
♠xxx
♥KQx
♦Kxxx
♣xxx
because he doesn't stop spades, or

He can bid a negative double here but pass is defensible, if opener can't balance we probably can't make anything.

avoscill, on 2014-January-11, 17:52, said:

♠xx
♥KQxxxx
♦Kxx
♣xx
because not strong enough; and opener too will have to pass, holding

Here, responder definitely bids a negative double and pulls 1NT/2♣/2♦ to 2♥, or raises 2♥ to game with a 7 loser hand (some would only invite though).