[kfay]

2nd seat unfavorable IMPs

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[BunnyGo]

No. No reason to pre-empt partner, and while I did think about 2♦ and 1♦ both are big enough lies with only lead directing upside that I don't see the reason to.

[phil_20686]

I would not.

[ggwhiz]

Nope. If pard opens I can bid my hand without lying to them. If they open, I can't be shut out unless I want to be.

[Phil]

God no.

5440 is seriously overrated.

[mike777]

no weak 3 suited hand tend to not play that great so pass in second seat.

[fromageGB]

If you have an Ekren 2♦ (=both majors 4+4+) or something similar, then certainly. If not, then certainly not !

[Codo]

I play Ekren, but would pass this hand because there is a more important feature in this hand then the majors...

[lalldonn]

Fay?

[kfay]

Maybe I haven't been playing enough lately :-)

[lalldonn]

Guess not, you're a point short of even having to ask.

[rhm]

Borderline.

Much better than the typical balanced 11 HCP rubbish, which is nowadays opened by many routinely.
I suspect almost all on this forum would open

2nd seat unfavorable IMPs

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which is not better.

Rainer Herrmann

[lalldonn]

rhm, on 2012-November-14, 06:06, said:

Borderline.

Much better than the typical balanced 11 HCP rubbish, which is nowadays opened by many routinely.
I suspect almost all on this forum would open

2nd seat unfavorable IMPs

---

which is not better.

Rainer Herrmann

It's a lot better if we don't find a fit. Or if partner doubles something.

[rmnka447]

Clear pass.

[SteveMoe]

NO.
Never mislead in 2nd seat.
Never take undue risk 2nd seat unfav.
NO.

[rhm]

lalldonn, on 2012-November-14, 10:52, said:

It's a lot better if we don't find a fit. Or if partner doubles something.

"a lot" is an exaggeration. A tiny bit better I can agree.

The chances of finding a fit with 4=4=5=0 compared to 3=4=5=1 are substantially better, as are game chances.
The chances of finding at least an eight card fit with 4=4=5=0 is 89.27% and for a nine card fit it is still 44.4%.
Chances of finding no fit is less than having a ten card or better fit.

I am not claiming that Pass can not win. But there is reason to be optimistic here.
As can be seen from the comments in this thread compared to others, most people get aggressive with the wrong type of hands when it comes to opening bid requirements.

Rainer Herrmann

[lalldonn]

rhm, on 2012-November-16, 05:51, said:

As can be seen from the comments in this thread compared to others, most people get aggressive with the wrong type of hands when it comes to opening bid requirements.

That is not at all clear. There are many reasons that could be the case. For example, after passing on this hand it will generally be easy to come in later so nothing may have been lost by passing, whereas on the "worse" hands that people open in other threads, it may be harder to come in later.

Lots of what you say is incomplete evidence. Yes game chances are better on 4450 than 3451, but do you know they are better on 4450 9 count compared to 3451 11 count? (I'm sure now that I brought it up, you will tell me...) Yes a fit is likely with 4450 but will you always get to a 5-3 diamond fit, or even want to play it? And how likely is a fit with 3451?

[rhm]

lalldonn, on 2012-November-16, 10:42, said:

That is not at all clear. There are many reasons that could be the case. For example, after passing on this hand it will generally be easy to come in later so nothing may have been lost by passing, whereas on the "worse" hands that people open in other threads, it may be harder to come in later.

This is always claimed when people choose Pass as their initial option. I do not share this view. Tempo is crucial in the bidding. Even if I could show my precise distribution after opponents bidding I prefer coming in first and giving opponents a problem to show their strength and distribution.

Quote

Lots of what you say is incomplete evidence. Yes game chances are better on 4450 than 3451, but do you know they are better on 4450 9 count compared to 3451 11 count? (I'm sure now that I brought it up, you will tell me...) Yes a fit is likely with 4450 but will you always get to a 5-3 diamond fit, or even want to play it?

Evidence is almost always incomplete Otherwise there would hardly be anything to argue about.
I choose the 3451 11 count example hand, because a priory I evaluate it as roughly equivalent in value to the 4450 9 count. I agree that on defense I slightly prefer the 5431 11 count.
If I get a fit and we declare I have a preference for the 4450 (a big preference if played in spades).

Quote

And how likely is a fit with 3451?

With 3451 chances for at least an 8 card fit is 85.8% for a nine card fit 39%
Game chances for 4=4=5=0 is a priory 45% and for 3=4=5=1 33% , but this is over the whole HCP distribution.
Game chances for an 11 and 9 HCP hand in general over all shapes are 32% and 24%.

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

In general I prefer 4450 shape over 3451 shape and 11 HCP over 9 HCP. I am glad to see that rhm's numbers suggest that my intuition is spot on.

[the hog]

rhm, on 2012-November-14, 06:06, said:

Borderline.

Much better than the typical balanced 11 HCP rubbish, which is nowadays opened by many routinely.
I suspect almost all on this forum would open

2nd seat unfavorable IMPs

---

which is not better.

Rainer Herrmann

Not close to a borderline opening.