[AL78]

Acol 3 weak twos, weak NT, Swiss pairs:

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Almost everyone else is in 4♠ or 6♠ and on nine out of eleven of those tables a heart was led which allowed declarer to make 12 tricks. Unfortunately we were playing against one of the three pairs who found a diamond lead killing the slam stone dead for the only negative NS score.

Partner and I had a discussion on this after the event and we agreed she should have gone slower if she had slam aspirations instead of blasting Blackwood, and I'm not sure if 4NT should be Blackwood here rather than a quantitative slam invite. I thought of something like going through 4SF followed by raising spades if I respond 2♠ or 2NT which should be forcing to game and invites a cue bid from me. Where this ends up I'm not certain as if I cue 4♣, partner cues 4♥, do I sign off in 4♠ because I don't have the extras to justify bidding past game?

[jillybean]

Tricky, I think I would bid 2S with your hand
This is why I play 2/1

[johnu]

Without commenting on the actual bidding, IMO you were unlucky to get a diamond lead on that auction with N having bid a natural 2♦. It seems to me that a diamond lead would be more attractive on an auction that just blasts to slam.

[sfi]

I don't know much about Acol, but can't South just bid 3S at their second turn to show this hand?

[Gilithin]

sfi, on 2023-April-30, 16:52, said:

I don't know much about Acol, but can't South just bid 3S at their second turn to show this hand?

That depends on how old your Acol is. In Stone Age Acol, a 2♠ rebid is about 8-10 (might be only 2 spades) and 3♠ is invitational. In Modern Acol, 3♠ is indeed usually played as game forcing but even here some play it as a 3 card invitational raise, with 2♠ more often being 2. Modern Acol also offers you 2♥ followed by 3♠ to show slam interest. If North bids 2♠ at their third turn over 2♥, Stone Agers will typically play 3♠ as invitational, meaning there is essentially no easy way of making a slam try below game. Yes, Acol is in many ways a backwards system.

[sfi]

Gilithin, on 2023-April-30, 18:02, said:

That depends on how old your Acol is. [...]

Thanks for the explanation. I think it's time for me to back away slowly and edge to the door. This all seems a bit scary now.

[DavidKok]

Seeing the NS hands 6♠ looks not crazy. You were unlucky to get a diamond lead.

I don't much care for the bidding. Jumping by 2.5 levels on a slam auction is a really poor idea. The bid gobbles up all the space and learns almost nothing. This has come up in other thread, but I strongly dislike jumping on slam auctions. I understand that Acol complicates things, but there has to be a better bid than 4NT (which should be quantitative, but is RKC for you per agreement) over 2♦. That jump gobbles up 2.5 levels of bidding space and learns almost nothing. On the actual action South didn't even know about the queen of spades. I would have interpreted 4NT as quantitative.

2♦ rather than 2♠ is a good bid.

[AL78]

For info, in Acol or at least the way we play it 3♠ by partner on her second turn would be invitational.

I'm never sure on these 6-4 hands whether to rebid the six card suit or show the second suit. I did the latter here because the suit quality wasn't very good.

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2023-May-01, 01:02, said:

Seeing the NS hands 6♠ looks not crazy. You were unlucky to get a diamond lead.

I don't much care for the bidding. Jumping by 2.5 levels on a slam auction is a really poor idea. The bid gobbles up all the space and learns almost nothing. This has come up in other thread, but I strongly dislike jumping on slam auctions. I understand that Acol complicates things, but there has to be a better bid than 4NT (which should be quantitative, but is RKC for you per agreement) over 2♦. That jump gobbles up 2.5 levels of bidding space and learns almost nothing. On the actual action South didn't even know about the queen of spades. I would have interpreted 4NT as quantitative.

2♦ rather than 2♠ is a good bid.

I need to have a chat with her about when 4NT is Blackwood or quantitative, and maybe a system tweak to make it easier to agree a suit in a game forcing manner whilst leaving space for cue bidding. There are times when playing Acol I feel restricted in the bidding. Looking at it again, after I show two key cards she probably shouldn't be bidding slam, as we are off two top diamonds, two aces, or one of the black aces needs to be knocked out before the diamond losers can go away which leaves us vulnerable to a diamond lead (as what happened).

[the hog]

"2♦ rather than 2♠ is a good bid"You will find, as I pointed out in a previous post, that with a 6-4 shape most experts will rebid the Major with a weaker hand and the minor with a stronger hand. Playing Acol this would be an obvious 2S bid.

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2023-May-01, 02:08, said:

"2♦ rather than 2♠ is a good bid"You will find, as I pointed out in a previous post, that with a 6-4 shape most experts will rebid the Major with a weaker hand and the minor with a stronger hand. Playing Acol this would be an obvious 2S bid.

Almost all UK Acol players rebid 2♦ on this because as we came across in the other Acol thread, 2♠ often ends the auction. If 2♣ promises another bid then yes, bidding 2♠ is reasonable, if it doesn't it's not good

[kgr]

AL78, on 2023-May-01, 01:29, said:

For info, in Acol or at least the way we play it 3♠ by partner on her second turn would be invitational.

I would forget about this hand, but change this.
I don't play 2/1 GF but after 2/1 bid then any support (with or without jump) to level 3 is slam interest. That makes the bidding easier.

[AL78]

kgr, on 2023-May-01, 05:31, said:

I would forget about this hand, but change this.
I don't play 2/1 GF but after 2/1 bid then any support (with or without jump) to level 3 is slam interest. That makes the bidding easier.

Thanks, it would be useful to have that agreement, but what does partner then do with an invitational hand with three card spade support?

[DavidKok]

The invitational 3-card raise is a problem in many systems, and in a 4cM system the problem is even worse. Short of a complete system overhaul I don't think you are going to find a neat solution. Some people fold this into a (semi)forcing 1NT, some people play Drury, some people include this hand type in their 2NT response and I'm sure there's even more options. It's a mess, each answer comes with its own cost.

[Gilithin]

AL78, on 2023-May-01, 05:55, said:

Thanks, it would be useful to have that agreement, but what does partner then do with an invitational hand with three card spade support?

They bid 2♠, since the bottom end of a 2/1 in Modern Acol puts the hand close enough to invitational range to make this workable. If you do not like this, as mentioned in my previous post, you have to go for 2♥ followed by 3♠. It helps in this case to be playing 4SF GF rather than the more traditional (for Acol) INV+.

[bluenikki]

Gilithin, on 2023-April-30, 18:02, said:

That depends on how old your Acol is. In Stone Age Acol, a 2♠ rebid is about 8-10 (might be only 2 spades) and 3♠ is invitational.

But in SAA your partner gets to know there is a source of tricks. Remove the heart ace from the south hand. In 2/1 you would have to conceal the main feature of the hand.

[kgr]

AL78, on 2023-May-01, 05:55, said:

Thanks, it would be useful to have that agreement, but what does partner then do with an invitational hand with three card spade support?

1♠-2♣
2♦-2♠: This would be invite with 3c♠. With 2c♠ you tend to bid 2NT.
More difficult is:
1♠-2♣
2♠-? : 3♠ would still be slam invite. With 3c♠ and invite we bid 4♠. With 2c♠ we bid 2NT or 4♠. (We make it ourselves more difficult by playing this 2♠ forcing).
This 2nd sequence can be more difficult, but still we find the general agreement very useful that after 2/1 support on 3-level is slam invite.

[Tramticket]

sfi, on 2023-April-30, 16:52, said:

I don't know much about Acol, but can't South just bid 3S at their second turn to show this hand?

I am late to this post. Notwithstanding the comment from Gilithin, the standard Acol treatment is:
- 1S-2C; 2D-2S is giving preference. Very often with only two card support. Responder will be be minimum for the two-level response - typically 10-11 points (the 8-10 range given is too weak, the modern two-over one suggests 10 points, or possibly a good nine).
- 1S-2C; 2D-3S is invitational. Around 11 points, but guaranteeing genuine three-card spade support.
- 1S-2C; 2D-4S shows game values, but not suggesting slam.
- Stronger hands will bid 2H (fourth suit forcing), then support spades.

[pescetom]

AL78, on 2023-April-30, 15:12, said:

Partner and I had a discussion on this after the event and we agreed she should have gone slower if she had slam aspirations instead of blasting Blackwood, and I'm not sure if 4NT should be Blackwood here rather than a quantitative slam invite. I thought of something like going through 4SF followed by raising spades if I respond 2♠ or 2NT which should be forcing to game and invites a cue bid from me. Where this ends up I'm not certain as if I cue 4♣, partner cues 4♥, do I sign off in 4♠ because I don't have the extras to justify bidding past game?

My rusty Acol is clearly stone age by the standards of this discussion, FWIW after 2♦ I would have expected 4♠ to show this hand (ready to play this game opposite a minimum 1♠ opening). But I guess a lot depends upon whether you have elevated 4SF to a game force and if so how you agree to differentiate the two possible sequences.
If you do go through 4SF then 2♥-2♠-3♠ should invite a control-bid. If you have cold feet about your scrappy trumps this is the moment to sign off, once you have bid 4♣ and partner bids 4♥ then you should not consider sign off: you hold ♦A and should trust partner's sequence, particularly if it is stronger than a direct jump to game.
North's hand is a good advert for 3NT Non-Serious used to indicate poor trumps: playing that you would bid 3NT after 3♠ and now when partner continues 4♣ you both know that in trumps you are missing at worst the Ace.

[Tramticket]

pescetom, on 2023-May-01, 09:32, said:

FWIW after 2♦ I would have expected 4♠ to show this hand (ready to play this game opposite a minimum 1♠ opening).

This would be a reasonable choice. The club holding looked attractive when you picked it up, but less so when partner shows spades and diamonds. One advantage of 4SF here is that the holding becomes much stronger again if partner now shows the club fragment.

As an aside, I do prefer 4SF as for ing to game.