[dickiegera]

Would double by south be negative for spades or penalty

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[Cyberyeti]

Penalties is standard I think, certainly is here

[Winstonm]

One of the features of a negative double is that responder must pass with a penalty double type hand while opener should reopen with a double when short in the overcalled suit (usually 2 or fewer) so responder can pass for penalties.

In this case with a 1N overcall there is no suit opener can be short in (can't be short in a NT). Double here is penalty.

[mikeh]

Playing it as negative caters to extremely low frequency hands while creating terrible results on most hands, where opener is minimum with no place to go.

Playing it as penalty, which is the norm, caters to far more hands, and usually far more lucrative hands

[helene_t]

Negative makes some sense if you play weak notrump ("partner, please pass if you have a balanced 15-count but bid your second suit if you have a 5431 11-count or so"), but in a strong notrump system there's no rationale for playing it as negative: opener would have no sensible way to respond to such a double with a 3532 12-count.

But even for weak notrump pairs, penalty is standard and probably best. This is frequently a no-fit auction, where overcaller's partner has a weak hand and nowhere to go, and South is in a good position to judge this: with any 9-count they know that NS has the majority of the points.

Besides, which hands would qualify for a negative double? Encouraging opener to bid again if opener has any 5431-shape would only be safe if responder has exactly 4144, but then it isn't safe in case opener has to rebid their 6-card hearts. Consider that E has shown at least one (often two) stoppers in hearts so a 6-1 fit is not great here. W knows their partner's defense values so is in a good position to double whatever North bids.

So penalty is 100% standard everywhere and clearly also the best agreement, although maybe you could experiment with non-penalty doubles under some special circumstances:
- At w/w at matchpoints if you play weak NT (and all 5M332 hands in range open 1NT)
- If you play Flannery and weak NT you could agree that the double shows both minors and heart tolerance
- If you play weak NT and have an intermediate 2♥ opening available you could agree that the double shows a 3-suited hand short hearts
- If you play weak NT and 4-card majors, you could play dbl as showing 3-card support
- If you play a strict canape system, maybe
- You could agree that the double shows some 1-suited hand (DONT) or two-suited (as in for example the Woolsey or Meyerson defenses to 1NT openings)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

regardless what you play it, x showes values, and I dont think the difference in strength req. would be huge,
if the difference exists at all:

#1 penalty starts at 9
#2 neg. x after 2-level overcalls start at 8

So basically, opener has always the option to convert, and should do this opening hands, that are not ashamed
of making the opening bid, or with extreme distribution.
So the requirement of 4 spades for being allowed to make, would be an addon, making the bid less frequent.

With kind regards
Marlowe