best variant for simple strong pass system
#1
Posted 2013-October-13, 15:56
Backbone:
"Openings" (1st/2nd seat):
pass = 0-8 or 15+ forcing
1M = 9-14 5+ cards
1NT= 12-14 bal
2NT= 18-20 bal
2x+= classic preempt in x (with a trash pree, you pass or open 1x)
3rd/4th seat openers and follow ups have a bucket load of subtleties which don't matter now. The point is which variant you prefer for 1m openers:
Variant 1:
1m = nat 3+ cards, either bal 9-11 or unbal 5+m (4 if 4441)
Variant 2:
1C = 9-11 bal
1D = 9-14 unbal
Pros/cons of variant 1:
+ Easy going, no need for gadgets.
- Responder may want to bid over 1m with 7-10 H but the system works best if all responses show 9+ H.
Pros/cons of variant 2:
+ Bids with 7-10 H are under control after 1C and 1D (see below).
+ 1D allows for 2/3/4/5C as pass/correct, regardless of strength of responder.
- Needs gadgets.
- Auction after 1D can get complicated when resp has majors and up to 14 H.
So which variant you think is preferable? Thx.
#2
Posted 2013-October-13, 19:38
whereagles, on 2013-October-13, 15:56, said:
Backbone:
Openings (1st/2nd seat):
1C = 0-8 or 15+ forcing
1M = 9-14 5+ cards
1NT= 12-14 bal
2NT= 18-20 bal
2x+= classic preempt in x (with a trash pree, you pass or open 1x)
3rd/4th seat openers and follow ups have a bucket load of subtleties which don't matter now. The point is which variant you prefer for 1m openers:
Variant 1:
1m = nat 3+ cards, either bal 9-11 or unbal 5+m (4 if 4441)
Variant 2:
1C = 9-11 bal
1D = 9-14 unbal
Pros/cons of variant 1:
+ Easy going, no need for gadgets.
- Responder may want to bid over 1m with 7-10 H but the system works best if all responses show 9+ H.
Pros/cons of variant 2:
+ Bids with 7-10 H are under control after 1C and 1D (see below).
+ 1D allows for 2/3/4/5C as pass/correct, regardless of strength of responder.
- Needs gadgets.
- Auction after 1D can get complicated when resp has majors and up to 14 H.
So which variant you think is preferable? Thx.
One of us is being a bit thick - are you sure you don't mean Pass is 0-8 or 15+?
#3
Posted 2013-October-16, 20:01
PhilKing, on 2013-October-13, 19:38, said:
I think your right pass=0-8 etc
as he later talks of possible 1♣ as 9-11 bal
#4
Posted 2013-October-18, 08:40
of course with some "real" value cases included
-- just to not be "open book" on those ferts.
This is just the reason sanctioning bodies outlaw these systems.
Can you imagine a TD adjudicating a successful fert?
Even with documented "we always do this; it is systemic"?
Let alone players screaming "They don't bid like us, that's not fair".
#5
Posted 2013-October-20, 04:11
As for the "ferts", if you play 1C/D as natural, this two-way pass system is as simple as it gets to defend against. If you play it as pattern-showing (1C bal, 1D unbal), then it gets a bit more difficult.. but still simple to deal with, if you compare it with other HUM systems.
#6
Posted 2013-October-21, 05:14
1C = unbalanced
1D = balanced
That gives you more space on the hands where you need it most. It's also more preemptive, because the balanced hands are more common than the unbalanced hands.
#7
Posted 2013-October-21, 16:28
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#8
Posted 2013-October-21, 18:29
Pass = 0-8 or 15+
1X = 4+ suit, either 9-11 balanced or 9-14 unbalanced
1NT = 12-14
2X = Preempt
2NT = 18-20
Holding 4432 you could choose to open your lowest suit, or perhaps hearts -> spades -> better minor.
If you go for the neboulous unbalanced 1C/1D I would suggest extracting the 4M + 5m hands from that opening, perhaps playing 2M openings as 9-14 4M and 5+m or using 1M as 4+ possibly canapé (Magic Diamond style).
I tried this structure a couple of times, only when non-vul:
pass = 15+ any
1m = 8-14, 5+ minor or 4441
1M = 8-14, 5+ major
1N = 11-14
2X = 4+ suit, 0-7 hcp
2N = 8-10 hcp
It's pretty bloody.
#9
Posted 2013-October-21, 19:51
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#10
Posted 2013-October-22, 09:21
I've played a combination of Moscito and Magic Diamond with a two-way pass, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. The 1C opening is awkward and the 1S opening is scary when vulnerable, but overall I liked it:
Pass = 0-7 hcp or 17+ hcp (18+ if balanced)
1C = 12-16 any unbalanced or 15-17 balanced
1D = 4+ hearts (not 4432 or 4333), may have longer minor, 8-11 hcp
1H = 4+ spades (not 4432 or 4333), may have longer minor, 8-11 hcp
1S = 8-11 balanced, no 5-card major
1N = 12-14
2m = Unbalanced 5+ minor, no 4+ major, 8-11 hcp
2M = 5-5 major + minor, 8-11 hcp
2N = We played this as 5-5 majors and 15-17 hcp due to the dot system regulations I wrote about above
#11
Posted 2013-October-27, 10:24
pass = 0-8 or 15+ forcing
*** I think way too much to untangle if (surely) opponents take up space -
they should be up to 2M,3m before pass can try to untangle all the 15+ hands by hcp and shape.
EG. take 2-suiters out by Mm opens 1M to jump m, shows 15-18 5-5 concentrated in 2-suits.
Even a two strengths 3-suited "Roman" - like opening 2D: 4441, 8-12 or 15-18.
#12
Posted 2013-October-30, 05:46
@gnasher: (reverse 1C/1D) Sure. I put them like that because of one simple reason: if you want to practice this system in regular tournaments, it might be banned from many of them. Then you could do this: pass = 0-8 or 9-11 bal, 1C = 15+, 1D = unbal 9-14. This turns the forcing pass system into a variant of regular precision, which can be played all around. Making 1D the unbal variant keeps mnemonics.
@Kungsgeten:
(Four card openings) Hmmm.. you have a point, but I'm not sure I'd want to open 1S on 4-3-3-3.
(5m-4M hands) Totally agree they are extremely annoying to handle. Variant 2 is aimed at these, at the cost of increased artificiality.
(Using 2 level openings) Don't like that sort of way out. I always try and keep my 2 level openers for weak 2s. Personal choice, really.
Curious question: how many dots would variant 1 and 2 get in Sweden?
@dake50:
(Untangle "pass" opener) Actually, the system allows for a symmetric overcall scheme which I'm still devising:
"pass" (1x) ??
Now:
1y = nat 9-14 GF opposite strong pass variant (i.e. "I have a positive over a 15+ pass").
Dbl= 9-14 short in x OR 15+ any shape. Advancer's min bids are 0-8, all else shows 15+.
2y+= classic preempt. Not pressure bid - you don't want to make it hard on pard if he has 15+.
Cue/2NT = two-suited overcalls, but always 15+ or thereabouts (frees up some hands from dbl).
Tweaks still in development. Noted your ideas. Thx.
Note also that if opps start opening/preempting over "pass" on trash, they might be getting in *their* own way: pass is 75% weak, 25% strong (100 000 hands sim data). That's the whole point of the two-way pass: they just can't preempt like crazy as they would opposite a strong club.
#13
Posted 2013-October-30, 09:21
I do not think that variant 2 is more aimed at the 4M and 5+ minor hands. Sure, if opener get a second bid before the opponents bid everything is clear. If you get this luxury then you would probably find the correct contract using either method. If the opponents interfere opener (and responder) will probably have a though time deciding what to do.
I like your idea of keeping the system "natural", and I like the weak twos too. Your problem hands are:
1. 4M and 5+m
2. 6+m
3. 5-4 / 5-5 minors
4. 9-11 balanced
If playing artifically (with your framework) I would combine 2 and 3 into the same category and then combine 9-11 balanced into that category or the 4M, 5+m category. Pretty popular among strong clubbers in Sweden (Nyström-Bertheau and Ahlesved-Petersson) is using 1D as balanced or 4M, 4+m and playing 2m as natural. Here's some alternatives:
1C = No major. Unbalanced with both minors or 6+ minor
1D = 9-11 bal or 4M and 4+m (if 4441)
(you could probably switch 1C and 1D, I do not know which one would work out best)
1C = 4M and 4+m
1D = 9-11 bal or minors or 6+m
(these could be switched too)
1C = 9-11 balanced or 5+ clubs (a short club)
1D = 4+ diamonds unbalanced
(a 5542 system)
About the dots: It depends on your responses to the pass opening. Responses usually do not get any dots, but a "odd pass" (except when always strong) is not considered an opening bid.
The basic opening structures, not considering the responses, would get:
Variant 1: 2 dots. One each for the 1m openings (since they're not natural, any suit bid which may contain less than 4 cards in the suit is considered unnatural).
Variant 2: 5 dots. Two for the 1C opening (can be down to 2 cards, but if less then 4 cards then always balanced). Three for the 1D opening (does not promise any cards in the suit or any other suit).
If your responses to the two-way pass is anything like the ones I'm familiar with then:
Pass--
1C = Weak or strong (0-8 or 17+ or similar). 3 dots.
1D = Nebulous. 3 dots.
1M = 5+ suit
1N = 14-17
2m = Natural or Precision style. If 2D is precision style then it get 1 dot.
The dots of the openings and the responses do not stack however, so you only count the highest variant. I would guess that your system gets 6 or 7 dots, which makes it legal in any event (except if a club has special rules forbidding or only allowing certain methods, like a beginner event).
You may want to get some inspiration from the Swedish system Symmetriskt Reläpass (symmetric relay pass): http://bridge.winge....t_Rel%C3%A4pass
#14
Posted 2013-November-24, 09:11
I would always prefer something that tends to be natural. Otherwise you're very handicapped in all the competitive sequences after the opening of 1m. And believe me, they will be competitive.
I have chosen:
1♣ = 9-12 balanced or 9-15 natural
1♦ = 9-15 4+, unbalanced
This structure combined with Transfer-Walsh, allows a system where you can respond 1m - 1M on 4hcp, and still get out alive. (Opener has a "good-raise to 2M" - option below the three-level.)
I don't think it would make a big difference if I switched to 1m = 3+, but I would not try the "balanced/unbalanced" method.
Best Regards
Ole Berg
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#15
Posted 2013-November-24, 09:44
1♣ = 0-8 or 16+
1♦ = 9-15, natural (But not one-suiter), or balanced.
1♥ = 9-15, 5+ or specific 4-4-1-4
1♠ = 9-15, 5+
1NT = 9-15, 5+♣, 4+♦
2♣ = 9-15, 6+♣ or 5+♣, 4+♥/♠
2♦ = 9-15, one-suited diamonds.
2♥/♠ = Disciplined weak-twos, at most 8 points.
2NT = 5+♣,5+♦, at most 8 points.
The one-suited diamond hand has been taken out of the 1♦ reply to allow for a smooth relay-structure.
Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#16
Posted 2014-February-21, 04:50
Board 11 Love all Dealer South
K643
J52
532
Q109
A98 Q5
A87 Q94
AK107 QJ98
A64 K875
J1072
K1063
64
J32
W N E S
Pass
Pass! 1C Pass 1D
Dble Pass Pass Rdble
Pass 1S Pass Pass
Dble All pass
West thought that Christmas had come at last. The contract went two off for 300 and they made 430 in the other room. Perhaps the only fallacy that this demonstrates is that it is a waste of time trying to penalise the opponents if they have all of the one level to choose from
#17
Posted 2014-February-21, 06:20
The VFP side needs to do its homework properly to mitigate the uncertainty. This may not as bad as it seems:
Overcalls:
pass (1x) 1y
This can be done on 9-14. Then pard can cue for a game force with all the 15+ hands (or make some artificial 2NT response). All other bids show 0-8.
Take out dbls:
A. pass (1x) dbl
B. pass (pass) 1x (dbl)
This can show short x and 9-14 or any 15+ (except balanced 15-17, which overcalls a normal 1NT as usual). Now advancer bids cue/2NT/3-level jump as game forcing 15+ or anything else natural 0-8.
#18
Posted 2014-March-01, 03:09
http://www.geocities...e/tuebpass.html