[squealydan]

Last hand of a Swiss Pairs event, all vulnerable, you're just off the medal places and the last round has been fairly uneventful thus far.

You pick up
♠ AKT985
♥ AK3
♦ KT9
♣ 5

RHO opens 1♣ (could be short, Standard American)
You double
LHO bids 1♥
Partner bids 1♠

RHO passes.

Partner's free bid promises 8 points according to the agreed system. On the other hand, you know your opponents fairly well and neither is the sort to psyche.

Your playing fairly basic systems, 2S would show a good hand, 3S an even better one but in a fairly new partnership these bids have never come up before so there's no agreement on whether 3S is forcing. 4NT is RKCB 1430. The response to a queen-ask would be 5♠ to deny it, and 5NT to show the Q but deny any kings.

What's your bid now?

[the_clown]

I will try 4♣, planning to key card if partner cuebids, but pass a 4♠ sign off.

[helene_t]

I think I just bid 4♠. Even if p has the ♦A we still need something in hearts and diamonds to make slam.

[ahydra]

4C then 4S, partner can go on if he has extra (very unlikely).

ahydra

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on 2012-August-07, 07:51, said:

I think I just bid 4♠. Even if p has the ♦A we still need something in hearts and diamonds to make slam.

Apparently, unless you changed your mind, I am not the only one who hits the + button while aiming for "reply"

Tempting to try 4C, as the Clown suggests, but I agree with you that the unlikely-to-be-useful slam probe probably isn't worth the torture or information leak.

BTW, I don't think it is practical for a "free" 1S advance to a double to promise as much as 8+. We really should be able to get in with a spade suit and less strength than that.

[Phil]

4♣.

[mycroft]

I don't have this issue, because I believe in wide-ranging overcalls. But my auction works similarly to everyone elses, and given that I believed this is a double-and-bid situation, I agree with 4♣ (since I'm going to be dummy anyway).

After 1♣-1♠-X-2♠; p I have my usual checks; 3♣ short game try, 2NT ask for help game try (both of which I'm converting to slam tries), 4♣ or 4♠. I'm more likely to just blast 4♠ in this auction, because partner's around 6-10 rather than 8+, but in the OP auction, it's probably 8-8 anyway.

The other issue is that shortness in partner's hand (which could easily be the case when there's 50 points in the deck, but on the other hand, why aren't they bidding their fit?) won't help us.

Oops, I've figured out why they aren't bidding their fit. The issue with 4♣ as opposed to 4♠ is that depending on the vul, if their fit is in clubs (which is likely), you've just shown them their paying sacrifice.

1♣-X-1♥-1♠
p-4♣-X-...

[gszes]

4s.



When you first look at it 4c seems a standout but if you take time
to think about if and start to place cards you see the futility in
trying for slam.

Aside fromm making it easier for opps to find a good
club sace we also have the following:

the problem with 4c is that there is no way we can
convince p their spade Q is probably useless and they
will think it is a positive value when we slam search.

P needs either AQJx in dia or AQ of dia and heart Q.

The card combinations when p has the spade Q are almost
all losing combos and we cannot search for the spade Q
w/o getting too high if they have it.

[neilkaz]

If PD promises 8 pts here (I'd free bid 1♠ with considerably less) then for sure I trust PD rather than opps and cue bid 4♣.

[kenrexford]

Out of curiosity...

1♣-X-1♥-1♠
P-3♣?

I mean, if 3♣ is a splinter here (why not?), then you have space to unwind things. For exampe,suppose partner has the heart Queen, the diamod Ace, and the diamond Queen. He hears 3♣ and likes his hand. So, he cuebids 3♦. You cue back 3♥, and he might be able to cue or not cue 3♠, depending on what that means for you. That might tell you whether the wasted Queen is missing. If he bypasses 3♠ without meaning to cue 3NT (serious?), that might also carry a message.

If 3♣ is a mini-splinter (game try only), then that approach does not work.

If 3♣ is a mini-splinter or better, then presumably Advancer can do something intelligent to accept a game try but cater to a slam try.

So, what is 4♣, then? A void splinter? A stronger splinter? A long suit splinter (and hence making the spade Queen less important)?

I mean, I would want to understand the nuances between 3♣ and 4♣ when answering this question.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner needs no more than a flattish 6 count (xxxx, xx, AQx, xxx plus a non heart). I'd bid 3♣ singleton splinter, 4♣ would be void for me.

[nigel_k]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-07, 12:18, said:

Partner needs no more than a flattish 6 count (xxxx, xx, AQx, xxx plus a non heart). I'd bid 3♣ singleton splinter, 4♣ would be void for me.

More likely partner will have spade honours. It depends on the agreements which sound non-standard. Something like QJxx xxx AJx xxx is a maximum 1♠ bid for me and I would be in slam with that if partner splintered in clubs. But if you need 8+ then this hand is closer to a minimum 1♠ bid, but still looks pretty good opposite a club splinter.

[Cyberyeti]

nigel_k, on 2012-August-07, 14:31, said:

More likely partner will have spade honours. It depends on the agreements which sound non-standard. Something like QJxx xxx AJx xxx is a maximum 1♠ bid for me and I would be in slam with that if partner splintered in clubs. But if you need 8+ then this hand is closer to a minimum 1♠ bid, but still looks pretty good opposite a club splinter.

4333 almost never looks good in these auctions, 6331/5(43)1 are very likely shapes for partner. For the record, I'd have overcalled 1♠ in my sleep.

[mikeh]

1. Many players seem to have 'agreements' but in fact play quite differently without ever seeming to notice. Thus I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that advancer held a decent 6 count instead of the 'promised' 8 count.....heck, who in their right mind passes 1♥ with QJxx xx xxxx Kxx?


2. Overcalling 1♠ is ugly....heck, I am Canadian and a disciple of Kokish (tho he shudders when he hears that) and even I think 1♠ is woeful....are we preserving double then bid for near 2♣ openers? Wow, those players must be real card racks to be able to afford to set the dividing line that high.

3. LHO probably has 0-1 spade....rho would likely take some action over 1♠ with short spades....he'd either be able to raise hearts or rebid clubs... this isn't an iron-clad inference but seems reasonable. This means that LHO probably has long clubs and a weak hand, with shape....that is to say....a hand that would be interested in saving but which might not be able to commit by itself. So: if we bid 3♣, we give LHO either a double or, more likely to be troublesome, a 4♣ call. If we bid 4♣, we give him a double. In either case we allow West to bring his partner into the dialogue about defending or saving. However, when we just blast game, LHO has to commit now, with very little info. I mean, he has no reason to think that we have a 10 or 11 card spade fit when he has weakness...we might just have power. Saving might be 300 or 500 against air.

4. Even if partner has the diamond A...which is what we are hoping he will show us over our splinter....just what are we doing with our losers? 6331, when our 6 is partner's long suit, doesn't play very well...we have a massive duplication of values in the trump suit.


I think looking for a slam that requires an unlikely set of of hands for partner while greatly increasing the ability of the opps to find a paying save is anti-percentage. Note that we don't have 5 level safety opposite many plausible 1♠ calls, so it isn't that we can afford them to bid 5♣, knowing that 5♠ rates to be just fine.

[lalldonn]

kenrexford, on 2012-August-07, 11:33, said:

I mean, if 3♣ is a splinter here (why not?), then you have space to unwind things. For exampe,suppose partner has the heart Queen, the diamod Ace, and the diamond Queen. He hears 3♣ and likes his hand. So, he cuebids 3♦. You cue back 3♥, and he might be able to cue or not cue 3♠, depending on what that means for you. That might tell you whether the wasted Queen is missing. If he bypasses 3♠ without meaning to cue 3NT (serious?), that might also carry a message.

Or, with his EIGHT working points, he would bid blackwood!

[kenrexford]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-07, 18:28, said:

Or, with his EIGHT working points, he would bid blackwood!

Partner cannot know that he has EIGHT working points yet. He certainly knows that the points are very favorable. But, either Queen might be wasted, and the lack of the spade Queen might be fatal.

I mean, here's the thing. Some slam auctions, IMO, are very delicate, while others are more bash-like. This ranges on a spectrum. The more space you have to unwind, the more aggressively you can pursue the delicate card-specific slams. But, with that goes caution in assuming that cards are those needed if there is space available to show those cards. If the auction gives you space to show them, then it is not clear that these are what you need, if you follow my meaning.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2012-August-07, 18:19, said:

2. Overcalling 1♠ is ugly....heck, I am Canadian and a disciple of Kokish (tho he shudders when he hears that) and even I think 1♠ is woeful....are we preserving double then bid for near 2♣ openers? Wow, those players must be real card racks to be able to afford to set the dividing line that high.

Also depends what the minimum for your 1♠ overcall is, if you play 11-20 (and make a lot of wide range WJOs) is it any different to playing 6-15.