[BunnyGo]

I was playing last night and the auction started

(P)-1♦-(1♥)-??

I had a (let's pretend decent) 6 card club suit but not a good enough hand to bid 2♣ (we're *not* playing negative free bids). So I doubled, planning on following up by bidding clubs.

The auction continued:

(P)-1♦-(1♥)-X
(1♠)-X*-(2♥)-??

*My partner's double showed a spade suit.

Now, do I have to continue with 3♣ to define my hand, or am I allowed to pass and leave everyone (including partner) in the dark? I chose to pass and it continued:

(P)-1♦-(1♥)-X
(1♠)-X*-(2♥)-P
(P)-2♠-(P)-3♣

At this point have I shown what my hand is? Does 3♣ mean something else after having passed? Would 3♣ have meant something else instead of passing over 2♥? How do these followups work?

[han]

Your double showed 4 spades. Weak with clubs is not a hand type that you can have for this double.

Having said that, your partner should know what's going on after you passed 2H (which was best) and then bid 3C.

[BunnyGo]

han, on 2011-August-31, 08:17, said:

Your double showed 4 spades. Weak with clubs is not a hand type that you can have for this double.

Having said that, your partner should know what's going on after you passed 2H (which was best) and then bid 3C.

I thought that when not playing negative free bids, a double and then bid of a new suit shows a hand that would have made a negative free bid. Is that completely incorrect? Am I confusing this with some other situation?

[helene_t]

It is true that double followed by 3♣ shows a weak hand with long clubs. However, it still shows four spades also. A weak hand with clubs only can chose between:
- pass
- 1NT (if you have a heart stopper)
- 2♦ (if you have 3+ diamonds)
- 3♣ (if you have seven, or a good six-card suit)


You may be confusing it with:
1♦-(2♣)-x-pass
2♥-(pass)-2♠
which shows a weak hand with long spades and does not promise heart or diamond tollerance.

[jmcw]

I can feel a headache coming on.

First you X showing ♠, then you pull! seemingly denying ♠. Makes no sense to me.

Try passing at your first turn and introduce ♣ if the auction permits.

[han]

After 1C- 1S you can double and then bid 2H with a weak hand and long hearts. But it's not playable to double with long diamonds, the auction might go 1C - 1S - Dbl - 3S - 4H. In the old days the negative double would be more ambiguous, but nowadays it's all about the unbid majors.

[ArtK78]

This may be a matter of partnership agreement, but I don't believe that the first double guarantees 4 spades. It strongly implies 4 spades, but guarantees is a bit strong.

I don't see anything wrong with bidding the way Bunny bid in the original post with a hand holding 6 clubs and less than the values to bid them directly over 1♥.

[Phil]

Yes, when I was taught negative doubles many years ago it was OK to not promise the other major, but now its standard. Unfortunately you have to pass with this.

I have played negative free bids and while they are useful on a hand like this, I do not like the idea of having to double with a hand an ace stronger.

[han]

ArtK78, on 2011-August-31, 11:08, said:

I don't see anything wrong with bidding the way Bunny bid in the original post with a hand holding 6 clubs and less than the values to bid them directly over 1♥.

Are you blind or what? If the opponents raise to 4H and partner has a good hand with a 4-1-6-2 shape, should he bid 4S or not? How can you say with a straight face that you don't see anything wrong?

[ArtK78]

han, on 2011-August-31, 12:39, said:

Are you blind or what? If the opponents raise to 4H and partner has a good hand with a 4-1-6-2 shape, should he bid 4S or not? How can you say with a straight face that you don't see anything wrong?

I am neither blind nor what.

Partner bidding 4♠ in competition is the risk that you take if you double on a hand without spades. If that happens, you have to decide whether to run to your 6 card club suit.

Nothing is perfect. Pass is not a perfect solution, either.

[mgoetze]

BunnyGo, on 2011-August-31, 08:27, said:

I thought that when not playing negative free bids, a double and then bid of a new suit shows a hand that would have made a negative free bid. Is that completely incorrect? Am I confusing this with some other situation?

Yes, you are confusing it with the situation where you are playing negative free bids, and then have to double on a single-suited hand which is to strong to make the NFB.

If you are not playing NFBs, you just have to pass some hands you would have liked to make a NFB on. Too bad. Maybe you can show it later.

[JLOGIC]

Han is dead on

[BunnyGo]

JLOGIC, on 2011-August-31, 16:06, said:

Han is dead on

Usually is.

[BunnyGo]

Thanks for the lesson, here is the full hand (with other names changed to protect the innocent):

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