[Hanoi5]

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Game tries can be a two-edged sword. In this case who did worse? East or West? Is it better to play short/long suit tries?

[han]

I don't think either player did badly. Give west a doubleton diamonds and game is absolutely great. I think this qualifies for a whatever.

[menggq]

3♦ was game try that implied "do u hv any values in ♦ suit"? West has ♦3 small sd bid 3♠ to refuse East inviatational bidding.

[whereagles]

Regardless of methods, I definetly want to be in this game. It's either spades 2-2 or opps not leading diamonds. That's 40%+ and a vulnerable game (at imps) is odds-on from about 33%+.

Anyway, my methods are mixed trials:

1st step = short suit trial
Other steps = trial with xxx(x)

With this method overcaller either bids 3♦ as a long trial or 2♠+3♥ as a short one.

I prefer long trials to be weak suits because I can't evaluate a values long trial properly.

[gnasher]

whereagles, on 2011-May-25, 03:05, said:

Regardless of methods, I definetly want to be in this game. It's either spades 2-2 or opps not leading diamonds. That's 40%+ and a vulnerable game (at imps) is odds-on from about 33%+.

Even with trumps 2-2, it's off if they lead diamonds - there's a trump promotion.

[whereagles]

And what sort of googles would opponents be using? I want a pair of those

[gnasher]

North will usually know that there are three diamonds to cash,. He'll usually know that if declarer has only five spades the promotion is risk-free. He'll know that if declarer has six spades, the promotion works against ♠AK ♣AK but not against ♠AKQ/AKJ ♣A. Both the decision to make a game try and the decision to make it in diamonds make the promotion a better bet.

I know these things are easier on paper than in real life, but that doesn't seem an especailly difficult defence to find. Doesn't it say "Advanced and Expert-Class Bridge" at the top of this page?

[cherdano]

If diamonds split 5-2, some opponents may also be able to indicate to each other whether the opening leader has the ♣K.

[whereagles]

gnasher, on 2011-May-25, 05:37, said:

I know these things are easier on paper than in real life, but that doesn't seem an especailly difficult defence to find.

Oh I agree, but in real life it can happen that opening leader has JTx of clubs, QJx of hearts, Axx of diamonds, etc.

[pooltuna]

Not to be in game is a system failure.

[awm]

First off, I don't want to be in game. Remember that 1♦ was opened. This greatly increases the chances that the guy on opening lead finds a diamond out (his partner's suit).

As to the bidding, it's fine through 3♥. The 3♦ bid says "I could use some help in diamonds" and the 3♥ bid says "I don't have help in diamonds, but I do have some heart cards." From the east standpoint (looking at a singleton heart and three baby diamonds) heart cards are not particularly useful. So east should bid 3♠ and play there.

In general two-way tries are the best (i.e. 3X short-suit, 2NT asks what long-suit try would be accepted) but there is not a huge difference.

[rogerclee]

awm, on 2011-May-25, 14:21, said:

the 3♥ bid says "I don't have help in diamonds, but I do have some heart cards."

Disagree!

[awm]

Suppose for example that East held ♠AKxxxx ♥QJx ♦Axx ♣x

It seems like this hand might also overcall 1♠ and try 3♦ over 2♠. However, game on this hand is great opposite west's hand! So it seems very useful for west to be able to show cards in hearts...

If Roger really thinks that slam should take precedence over game in an auction with both opponents bidding constructively (i.e. 3♥ is a cuebid with diamond help also, in case of a slam try) then I wish him good luck with that. Otherwise I'd be interested to hear what he thinks 3♥ is, and how he proposes to get to game opposite my hand above while avoiding game on the actual pair of hands.

[rogerclee]

I play 3H shows a hand which has some values but is not willing to bid game by himself.

As for explaining how I plan to bid every game which is good and stay out of every game which is not, I will not reveal that secret so lightly! You will have to purchase my upcoming book, How to Play Bridge Perfectly, coming to Master Point Press next month.

[dboxley]

rogerclee, on 2011-May-25, 15:33, said:

Disagree!

If you're going to disagree you should at least say what you think it should mean. I've always thought it was a counter game try.

OK, I just saw your answer, I should have looked before I responded. I still don't know how "having some values" is going to help if pd doesn't know where they are other than not in diamonds.

[Hanoi5]

rogerclee, on 2011-May-25, 16:17, said:

I play 3H shows a hand which has some values but is not willing to bid game by himself.

As for explaining how I plan to bid every game which is good and stay out of every game which is not, I will not reveal that secret so lightly! You will have to purchase my upcoming book, How to Play Bridge Perfectly, coming to Master Point Press next month.

dboxley, on 2011-May-27, 06:25, said:

If you're going to disagree you should at least say what you think it should mean. I've always thought it was a counter game try.

OK, I just saw your answer, I should have looked before I responded. I still don't know how "having some values" is going to help if pd doesn't know where they are other than not in diamonds.

Isn't there an inference that the person who makes a long suit try when there are three available suits will skip a suit where s/he needs no help? So in this case when partner asks about diamonds he needs help in the suit but does not need help in clubs. Could the overcaller hold: AKxxxx Qxx Qxx A? Then 3♥ leads to 4♠, but should advancer bid 3♥ with Qxx Kxx xxx KQTx? I'm not so sure.

[dake50]

"And what sort of googles would opponents be using? I want a pair of those --whereagles

** To lead partner's bid suit requires GOGGLES?

[Hanoi5]

dake50, on 2011-May-27, 17:28, said:

"And what sort of googles would opponents be using? I want a pair of those --whereagles

** To lead partner's bid suit requires GOGGLES?

Maybe he's the guy who first said: 'The googles! They do nothing!!!"

[whereagles]

well, whatever. you know what I mean

[P_Marlowe]

What is the issue? You have 23HCP, a 9 card trump fit - you reach game -1, so what?

To answer your 2nd question - we play value showing trial bids, but responder is
fairly strong for his single raise, so he will always accept the invite.

With kind regards
Marlowe