[Fluffy]

♠AKx
♥Q9xx
♦Qxx
♣Jxx


1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♥-???

[jillybean]

Why wouldn't 4th suit game forcing apply in this sequence, or must partner bid 3♥ to force game?

[Echognome]

3♦

[Jlall]

2N, whats the problem? If partner has a stiff club he's not gonna bid 3N. If we are already too high you can blame your 2C bid.

[Echognome]

Funny. I assumed 2♣ was GF. If it's simply F1, then I change to 2N.

[Jlall]

Echognome, on Jun 2 2010, 07:45 PM, said:

Funny. I assumed 2♣ was GF. If it's simply F1, then I change to 2N.

Yeah I assumed GF also I meant if game is too high blame our 2C bid heh

[kenrexford]

Way too little info, and yet a few responses. Weird.

1. I assume 2♣ was one-round force. Otherwise, poor call.

2. What did Opener show for his 1♠ call? Is 4333 possible? Does this promise at least 4-4 in the blacks? Or, does this show unbalanced (5+ clubs, 4 spades)?

I mean, for me, Opener has shown 4351 pattern, or so. Why would I bid 2NT opposite that hand? Stiff opposite Jxx doesn't seem good for notrump. 3♦ would seem to stand out.

I'm not exactly sure why I'm bidding 2♣ anyway, whatever it shows. But, whatever.

[nige1]

Fluffy, on Jun 2 2010, 06:40 PM, said:

♠ AKx ♥ Q9xx ♦ Qxx ♣ Jxx
1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♥-???

IMO 3♦ = 10, 2♠ = 5, 2N = 4
In this context, I feel that notrump bids should show ♣ stops.

[pirate22]

Fluffy, on Jun 2 2010, 06:40 PM, said:

♠AKx
♥Q9xx
♦Qxx
♣Jxx


1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♥-???

assuming one is ply better minor-or min 4 card diamond.
bidding 1d-1h-1sp-2cl!-2ht now shows pard must be 4s/3h/5d/1cl,
over your 2cl! forcing 1 round-----so i now bid 2sp,and pard will pass,or rebid 3d,if he is 4s/3h/4d/2cl he may pass your two spades,or go to game in 4 spades.

[EricK]

So much depends on overall system.

What has opener shown?
For some, this could be a 4-2-4-3 hand with no club stop; for others, it will promise 45 in ♠♦ but could still be showing a doubleton ♥ (usually Hx or better); for others it pretty much guarantees a 4351 hand.

What is the agreement on 2♣? For some it is GF; for others it is just 1RF; yet others play a middle ground - eg GF unless opener rebids 2M, and responder doesn't bid NT or higher.

In most systems, this hand would be a 3♦ bid. But in others 2♠ or 2NT could be correct.

[mich-b]

3♣ "5th suit forcing" ..

[Hanoi5]

I would have probably bid 2NT over 1♠. Even 1NT sounded better.

If partner could understand 3♥ as an invitation I'd bid that, 4♥ right away is another possibility.

2NT of coiurse is the best IF partner will bid 3♥ with a singleton club. In my opinion the 1♦-1♠-2♥ sequence already shows 5431 and that's why I preferred to continue with hearts.

Does your partner's 1♠ deny a balanced hand?

[Fluffy]

partner could still be balanced on our system.

[aguahombre]

Fluffy, on Jun 3 2010, 03:29 AM, said:

partner could still be balanced on our system.

indeed. Opener could be 4-3-4-2 with a split range up to 19; or 4-3-5-1 with a wide range up to 18.

If the responder really had a game force, he could bid a mark-time 2NT after 4sgf to find out more. I guess I would pretend I had a GF and bid 2NT now anyway, hoping for 3NT or 3D by opener to clear up the distribution.

The alternatives to the 4th suit bid weren't that wonderful either; 2NT with that great club stopper, but at least showing size and shape; or 3♦, lying about shape but getting the strength right.

[whereagles]

Fluffy, on Jun 3 2010, 09:29 AM, said:

partner could still be balanced on our system.

Then bid 3NT. What else can you have but your actual hand?

- you didn't bid hearts, so you don't have 5 of those
- you didn't bid 2NT, so you want to be in game (I take it 2♣ is just F1 round)
- you didn't bid a suit, so you're balanced

hence, you're probably balanced with 13-16 or thereabouts, with club problems. Plus, it agrees with Hamman's 3rd rule: "if 3NT is an option.. bid it!"

If 3NT is still scares you, you can try forcing stuff like 3♣ or 3♦ and see what happens.

[Phil]

kenrexford, on Jun 2 2010, 08:02 PM, said:

I mean, for me, Opener has shown 4351 pattern, or so. Why would I bid 2NT opposite that hand? Stiff opposite Jxx doesn't seem good for notrump. 3♦ would seem to stand out.

I'm not exactly sure why I'm bidding 2♣ anyway, whatever it shows. But, whatever.

Me too. Plus partner should have a little extra.

I would raise to 2♥ directly with many non-descript 4342's and rebid 1N with 4333.

I hope 2♣ isn't GF. I mean, seriously...

[aguahombre]

Phil, on Jun 3 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

I would raise to 2♥ directly with many non-descript 4342's and rebid 1N with 4333.

The 4-3-3-3's are out of the mix for us because of the ♦ opening.
Maybe we are oblivious to the times when we landed in 1NT or found our 4-4 spade fit and missed a better 2♥ contract, because we didn't raise hearts with 4-3-4-2.

[Apollo81]

2-way NMF works well in this auction. Playing this, you can bid 2♣...2♠ with this hand type (showing an invite with only 3-card ♠ support and no other good call).

With the start you gave us, I would bid 2NT for lack of other options.

[gnasher]

Having to bid 2NT on this hand isn't terrible - it will be wrong only if partner has ♣A10, and perhaps also if he raises to 3NT with a singleton honour in clubs when we could make some other game.

It would be a lot worse to have to bid 2NT with AKx Q9xx Kxx xxx. Now the wrongsiding could well be fatal.

This isn't a particularly unusual problem - one of the reasons that Fourth Suit Forcing was invented was the need to find a stopper in the unbid suit. The easy answer is to play 3♣ as Fifth Suit Forcing, and play 1♦-1♥;1♠-3♣ as natural.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would have bid 2NT instead of 2C.
Assuming 2C was FSF and GF, than you have to bid 3C,
which ask for a half stopper.
If 2C was FSF, but inv.+, than 2H was min and you can
pass.

With kind regards
Marlowe