[WasWinM]

 jillybean, on 2025-July-28, 18:00, said:

Ah, but how times have changed. A powerful hand used to be any 13 count "opening hand"

When was “used to be” to you. In 1973, such was not the case. I’m sure many here go back further and I’d be surprised if they found such to be the case.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-July-28, 18:00, said:

Ah, but how times have changed. A powerful hand used to be any 13 count "opening hand"

That has never been true for any good players I’ve known. Nor has it ever been true in any of the writings I’ve read over the years (and few will have read more than I) I have no idea whence this came, but my advice is to forget you ever heard of it.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-July-28, 16:38, said:

Anything but a strong hand appears to be impossible - you can't have 5 spades (or you would have overcalled 1♠), and why bid a 4 card suit that you already implied and partner failed to raise last time?

So is 1S with 5 spades unlimited?

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-July-28, 20:12, said:

So is 1S with 5 spades unlimited?

No. I'm saying that weaker hands with 5+ spades would have bid spades last time, and weaker hands with 4 spades can't want to bid spades now, so double then 2♠ can't just be "balancing or competitive".

[mw64ahw]

My X and rebid will be 18+ (I play intermediate jumps) with 5/5.5 mod losers or better and likely a 6+card suit. South had 10 mod. losers which can be upgraded given the potential ruffs are a positive. Using the usual criteria suggests 4♠ may be viable.

[jillybean]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-28, 18:53, said:

When was “used to be” to you. In 1973, such was not the case. I’m sure many here go back further and I’d be surprised if they found such to be the case.

mikeh, on 2025-July-28, 18:59, said:

That has never been true for any good players I’ve known. Nor has it ever been true in any of the writings I’ve read over the years (and few will have read more than I) I have no idea whence this came, but my advice is to forget you ever heard of it.

There’s no doubt that you are correct, double first with an opening hand is what I picked up from club players and I do still see it used. As you see, my overcalls have gone too far in the other direction, double is only shape.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-July-28, 20:49, said:

No. I'm saying that weaker hands with 5+ spades would have bid spades last time, and weaker hands with 4 spades can't want to bid spades now, so double then 2♠ can't just be "balancing or competitive".

So 5 card suit monster doubles then bids 2nt or doubles again

[DavidKok]

With a 5 card spade suit and a strong hand, say good 18 or stronger, I would double and then bid spades. The inference that this shows 6 causes too many problems on the more common 5 card suits.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2025-July-29, 09:22, said:

With a 5 card spade suit and a strong hand, say good 18 or stronger, I would double and then bid spades. The inference that this shows 6 causes too many problems on the more common 5 card suits.

For me, it depends. Sometimes I’ll bid 1S then double. Sometimes I’ll double then bid spades. Very rarely I’ll double and then bid notrump….I’d need 2 stoppers to do that. Sometimes I’ll double and double again, should that be necessary. I look at my distribution, strength of my five card suit, holding in opener’s suit and so on. I really do not like doubling and then having to bid a five card suit after, say, (1H) x (2H) P (P) but sometimes it’s the smallest distortion.

[WasWinM]

I think there is a decent case to be made for intermediate jump overcalls. As so much destructive bidding seems to be used today I’m surprised Fishbein hasn’t been resurrected as a defense.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

if they open 1H and you hold 5 spades and a strong hand, the auction that you need to take into consideration is not

(1H) - X - (2H) - ...

it is

(1H) - X - (3H) - ...

If you start with X you need to be prepared and willing to bid the spade suit at what ever level reaches you.
And the vul does not really matter, if you cant stand 3S ( or 4S ), you should have started with 1S.
The original hand is ok, you have a strong 6 card suit and 2 Aces on the side, but it is a min for going the route X
followed by bidding spades.

I am side stepping the Q, if 2S in the original seq. showes a 6+ suit or only 5+, but the suit length does not matter,
if you can make the bid with a 5 card suit if req. on the 3 level without blinking, than why not.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

It's a complicated game, eh

[mikeh]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-29, 12:12, said:

I think there is a decent case to be made for intermediate jump overcalls. As so much destructive bidding seems to be used today I’m surprised Fishbein hasn’t been resurrected as a defense.

As with just about everything in bridge bidding, any choice you make has pluses and minuses. Intermediate jumps suffer from several issues:

1. They happen infrequently. You need a 6 card suit and around opening values. The OP hand, for example, is far too strong for an intermediate jump overcall

2. They make it extremely difficult to find another suit. Now, that’s not a big problem since the overcall is typically single suited but every now and then you belong in partner’s suit and likely can’t find it. And when you do find it, level can be hard to determine because the overcall consumed a full level of bidding

3. Even when, as is most common, you belong in your suit or notrump the taking away of bidding space sometimes impairs your ability to accurately judge level or strain.

4. The big one: you lose the preemptive jump overcall. Red v white, I’d say this isn’t a big deal one way or the other, but at equal and even more so at favourable, losing the preempt can be extremely costly. Most good pairs bid very accurately against passing opps but few maintain that level of accuracy once the opps start preempting…even when they ‘could’ collect a number. Imo, this is a dealbreaker on direct intermediate jump overcalls. I think they’re a bad idea at mps but even worse at imps.

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-July-29, 05:57, said:

So 5 card suit monster doubles then bids 2nt or doubles again

No, it can double and bid spades if that's most appropriate. This situation has no relation to my post, which was about what weak hands do..

[WasWinM]

 mikeh, on 2025-July-29, 13:40, said:

As with just about everything in bridge bidding, any choice you make has pluses and minuses. Intermediate jumps suffer from several issues:

1. They happen infrequently. You need a 6 card suit and around opening values. The OP hand, for example, is far too strong for an intermediate jump overcall

2. They make it extremely difficult to find another suit. Now, that’s not a big problem since the overcall is typically single suited but every now and then you belong in partner’s suit and likely can’t find it. And when you do find it, level can be hard to determine because the overcall consumed a full level of bidding

3. Even when, as is most common, you belong in your suit or notrump the taking away of bidding space sometimes impairs your ability to accurately judge level or strain.

4. The big one: you lose the preemptive jump overcall. Red v white, I’d say this isn’t a big deal one way or the other, but at equal and even more so at favourable, losing the preempt can be extremely costly. Most good pairs bid very accurately against passing opps but few maintain that level of accuracy once the opps start preempting…even when they ‘could’ collect a number. Imo, this is a dealbreaker on direct intermediate jump overcalls. I think they’re a bad idea at mps but even worse at imps.

I mostly agree. I played them 1000 years ago, not long after Precision had replaced Schenken, and it seems they were more valuable vulnerable than not.

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-July-29, 13:47, said:

No, it can double and bid spades if that's most appropriate. This situation has no relation to my post, which was about what weak hands do..

I'm only trying to understand the entire structure