[jillybean]

I had an interesting discussion with a couple of players in the game today.

After an auction where East made a skip bid, showing a strong hand and their partner did not recognize the skip, North, visiting from the Netherlands advised East that they should have used the Stop card to alert partner to the skip bid, or with no Stop card available, announce that there was to be a skip bid.

East discussed this with me at the break and I explained that no visual or verbal warning of a skip bid is permitted, however LHO should still pause for ~10 seconds before making a call, and why this change was made.

North came to me after the game wanting clarification, I gave the same explanation but North did not seemed convinced. They are returning the the Netherlands and will check regulations, before returning to Vancouver and this game later this year.

What are the Dutch regulations? Does the WBF still use stop cards in events without screens?

[mycroft]

The stop card was never to be used to alert partner to the jump bid, but to request a pause from the opponents so that LHO and partner can make almost all their calls after the jump in a consistent tempo.

The stop card was used (usually by people who didn't know better) to show a preemptive call (a strong jump wouldn't "need it", you see). Even experts - even experts who complained about the novices who used the stop card to differentiate between strong and weak jumps - would use the stop card when they thought the opponents would need to think (say, opening 3♥, or jump overcalling) and not when "clearly, the auction's over" (like the jump to 3NT or 6NT), or at least "we know you have nothing to think about here" calls (like 1♦-p-1♠-p; 3♠). Because "we all know" this isn't one of those "need a pause" auctions (and, of course, almost always they were obviously right). But it still, magically, let partner know "I know the opponents aren't coming in now", but it's okay when they did it, because "anybody know plays bridge would know that".

Anyone who thinks the stop card is used to wake partner up to the jump learned the same thing the "stop before a weak bid" people did. They probably cup their hand on the table behind dummy when partner won the trick there, too. The fact that it might help wake partner up to the clear auction is - frankly - a side-effect, not the point.

We in the ACBL took it away, but kept the requirement for the pause. Which means that people pause just as much and just as often as when the stop card was allowed, but now the ones that never did (unless they had to think) "know" that "they don't have to any more, because there's no stop card." And yes, they'd tell me that when I was called to the table, or in the bar afterward. But at least people don't have to worry about the stop card passing information (yes, even the information it wasn't supposed to need to pass).

What, cynical, me?

AFAIK (and I don't K much), we're the only weirdoes that don't use the stop card. Having said that, we were the only weirdoes that did the stop card dance the way we did, and we were the only weirdoes who thought "stop card is optional, real men bridge players don't need it" when it was in use.

[jillybean]

Thanks, we all know the player whom before making a skip bid would stare intently at partner then place the stop card closer to partner than LHO but you missed the LHO who would pause after a skip bid but do so while grimacing and mouthing the seconds to 10.

I was interested to know if we are the only weirdoes who have discarded the stop card.

[blackshoe]

jillybean, on 2025-February-26, 22:55, said:

I was interested to know if we are the only weirdoes who have discarded the stop card.

Far as I know, we are. As for your visiting players, just show them the relevant ACBL regulation. What the regulations are in the Dutch Federation or WBF isn't your problem, and has nothing to do with what the regulations are in the ACBL.

[jillybean]

blackshoe, on 2025-February-26, 23:37, said:

Far as I know, we are. As for your visiting players, just show them the relevant ACBL regulation. What the regulations are in the Dutch Federation or WBF isn't your problem, and has nothing to do with what the regulations are in the ACBL.

I’ve got my book . I was more interested in knowing if this was a global thing or just another American anomaly.

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2025-February-26, 22:55, said:

I was interested to know if we are the only weirdoes who have discarded the stop card.

I think you are.

The problem in the ACBL was that the introduction of the Stop card was poorly done.

In the UK, and I expect most of the world, use of the Stop card was mandatory and it was explained that the key reason was to prevent the next bidder from taking an instant call, giving them time to consider their options without giving away the strength of their hand. It was not perfectly implemented and, even today, my better half stares at people in the club when they ignore the Stop card ... but at least they appreciate what they should have done. At tournaments without screens in the UK, it works well. I expect it is the same in the Netherlands.

However the ACBL did not make it mandatory, it was optional and the pausing seemed to be optional too whatever the ACBL intended. From its initial position, it proved impossible to make it mandatory and a significant minority developed the habit of using the Stop card to ensure that their partner knew that they had a strong (or weak) hand as appropriate. Even at regional events at Nationals, the Stop card was abused significantly.

[sanst]

I think I can answer your questions. Under the Dutch regulations you have to use the stop card or, when that is absent announce by saying "Stop", at any skip bid. So far the Dutch player is right. But he's completely wrong if he thinks that the card is used for the benefit of his partner. It's a serious offence to use it that way. Your partner has to ignore the card or announcement or its absence. It's solely for the LHO to make clear that (s)he has to pause for ten seconds before making a call.
As you can guess these regulations are often ignored and IMNSHO superfluous at best and conveying UI at worst, e.g. when ignoring the pause and making a quick call.
You might point out to your guest that he should follow local regulations when these differ from the ones he is used to. But quite often it's wrongly assumed that the game is played the same everywhere. Even more importantly, here, as everywhere, players don't tell opponents what the rules are but call a director if they think that there's an infraction.
FWIIW, I'm a fully qualified TD ('NBB wedstrijdleider' in Dutch).

[jillybean]

Thanks for the above. I am well aware, thanks to contributors on this forum, of the correct usage and purpose of the Stop card.
Unfortunately, many players use it to alert their partner and now that the card has been removed in ACBL land, players use other methods.

Paul, I think your comment "The problem in the ACBL was that the introduction of the Stop card was poorly done." applies to all the Laws.
There is no introduction to the Laws at all other than piecemeal attempts by some well meaning Directors, teachers or players.
I'm not at all surprised the Stop card was misused at Regionals and Nationals.

Sanst, when I explained to our visiting player that using the Stop card to alert your partner was an inappropriate use and the reason why the ACBL had removed the card, but even without the Stop card, LHO was required to pause for 10 seconds. The player voiced that the pause wakes up the partner of the skip bidder anyway, so it's all the same.

Without screens, there are many theatrics at the table.

[helene_t]

New Zealand recently decided to get rid of stop cards.

I must say I found it a bit weird to use stop cards in NZ because in almost all clubs, the stop cards was the only bidding card used since they didn't use bidding boxes.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2025-February-27, 07:45, said:

Sanst, when I explained to our visiting player that using the Stop card to alert your partner was an inappropriate use and the reason why the ACBL had removed the card, but even without the Stop card, LHO was required to pause for 10 seconds. The player voiced that the pause wakes up the partner of the skip bidder anyway, so it's all the same.

The pause by LHO might (will, if executed unnaturally) wake up the partner to the fact that it was a skip bid, but can not convey any AI from the skip bidder, unlike occasional use of the Stop card.

But I still agree with Paulg, this seems to be a mainly American problem. We do have some low level pairs who will play Stop=weak or vice versa, but it's so obvious that it just points them out for what they are, without causing real problems or contagion.

[blackshoe]

paulg, on 2025-February-27, 02:32, said:

However the ACBL did not make it mandatory, it was optional and the pausing seemed to be optional too whatever the ACBL intended. From its initial position, it proved impossible to make it mandatory and a significant minority developed the habit of using the Stop card to ensure that their partner knew that they had a strong (or weak) hand as appropriate. Even at regional events at Nationals, the Stop card was abused significantly.

The regulation as written made it mandatory, at least insofar as not doing was an infraction, but in practice it was optional because no director had the cojones to actually punish the failure. And yes, there was a lot of abuse.

[blackshoe]

helene_t, on 2025-February-27, 08:01, said:

New Zealand recently decided to get rid of stop cards.

I must say I found it a bit weird to use stop cards in NZ because in almost all clubs, the stop cards was the only bidding card used since they didn't use bidding boxes.

Written bidding?

[helene_t]

 blackshoe, on 2025-February-27, 14:49, said:

Written bidding?

Yes

[johnu]

helene_t, on 2025-February-27, 14:55, said:

Yes <to written bidding>

Why not bidding boxes? Cost? (IIRC I looked at the cost of bidding boxes and they seemed very expensive when the club needed a box for every potential player)

[sanst]

 johnu, on 2025-February-27, 16:22, said:

Why not bidding boxes? Cost? (IIRC I looked at the cost of bidding boxes and they seemed very expensive when the club needed a box for every potential player)

Of course I don't know about NZ prices, but in The Netherlands - including the old Zeeland - a club can buy four boxes with the cards at the bridge union's shop for somewhere between €25 and €32. The players spent quite often more on drinks during a bridge evening than €6...€8, so I don't see how the price can be an impediment.

[helene_t]

johnu, on 2025-February-27, 16:22, said:

Why not bidding boxes? Cost? (IIRC I looked at the cost of bidding boxes and they seemed very expensive when the club needed a box for every potential player)

The "number 8 wire mentality" may be the original reason but IMHO written bidding is just better:
- no issues with too few boxes or boxes with incomplete card sets
- no issues with (doubtful) "mechanical" bidding mishaps
- no issues with boxes that fall on the floor
- no doubts about whether a bid was alerted or whether the final bid was doubled, even after the event we still have an audit trail of each auction including alerts

[pescetom]

 helene_t, on 2025-February-28, 03:43, said:

The "number 8 wire mentality" may be the original reason but IMHO written bidding is just better:
- no issues with too few boxes or boxes with incomplete card sets
- no issues with (doubtful) "mechanical" bidding mishaps
- no issues with boxes that fall on the floor
- no doubts about whether a bid was alerted or whether the final bid was doubled, even after the event we still have an audit trail of each auction including alerts

I've never tried it so have an open mind, but I imagine that if it never really competed with bidding boxes as a replacement for spoken bidding there probably are good reasons.

How does alerting work, without screens - does one self-alert then partner receives the question? That would raise some interesting legal problems.

I agree with you that the lack of an audit trail is a significant limitation of bidding boxes, although the doubled or not contract issue can be solved by leaving out the appropriate bidding card.

I too reject the presumed issue of insufficient numbers of boxes.
Also dubious mechanical errors: in my experience these errors are infrequent and almost invariably genuine.
People humming and hawing between the two different zones of the box is a more real problem, at least at lower levels.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2025-February-28, 12:17, said:

How does alerting work, without screens - does one self-alert then partner receives the question? That would raise some interesting legal problems.

No, you circle partner's bid. In addition to the audit trail it also means that opps can't possibly avoid noticing the alert.

[jillybean]

helene_t, on 2025-February-28, 12:25, said:

No, you circle partner's bid. In addition to the audit trail it also means that opps can't possibly avoid noticing the alert.

You'd hope so, wouldn't you?

Written bidding is simple and avoids the issues Helene mentions however it has just as many, if not more ethical issues as the bidding box does.
Large writing, small writing, varying orientation of the writing, bold writing, faint writing, large, bold X, small X, hovering pencil over pad.

[helene_t]

Use a red pen to write 1♥ if you absolutely want a heart lead