[jdiana]

Reading the discussion of "OBAR" bids, i.e., pre-balancing bids in the direct seat (immediately after responder) when opponents have bid and raised the same suit, in To Bid or Not to Bid, and looking at some other descriptions as well. In some places, it says that these bids should be alerted but, as I read the ACBL Alert procedures, an overcall in that situation does not need to be alerted though a pre-balancing double does need to be alerted.

Is that your all's understanding?

(To be clear, I'm talking about situations like this (1♥)-P-(2♥)-?)

[mw64ahw]

I doubt it - I regularly use OBAR bids, but they never get alerted nor has the question ever arisen.

[jdiana]

mw64ahw, on 2025-February-26, 09:48, said:

I doubt it - I regularly use OBAR bids, but they never get alerted.

You're right - sorry. I misread the section on alerting doubles.

As an experienced OBAR bidder, what do you do if you have a strong hand? For example, after (1♦)-P-(2♦)-?, what if you have a good heart suit and an opening hand? Do you double then bid it?

[DavidKok]

 jdiana, on 2025-February-26, 09:51, said:

You're right - sorry. I misread the section on alerting doubles.

As an experienced OBAR bidder, what do you do if you have a strong hand? For example, after (1♦)-P-(2♦)-?, what if you have a good heart suit and an opening hand? Do you double then bid it?

No, you bid 2♥.

Putting it bluntly two different ways:

• Listen to the auction. While openings can be on 9 HCP, and simple raises can be on nice 4-counts, most of the time they are 11+ and 6-9 even in today's landscape. The opponents own close to half the deck, with a significant probability of them having way more. On your example auction the math is even less forgiving as this was likely an inverted minor raise. So if we have extras, the person most likely to have less is partner. So don't get too excited with a stronger hand, odds for game are slim.
  
• OBAR bids deliberately reserve more bidding space for competitive bids, i.e. 'bid your shape and points schmoints', sacrificing the ability to show strength with an overcall. Naturally this loses some on the stronger hands, and in exchange it gains on the weaker hands. The claim is that on balance this is profitable on an opponents-bid-and-raise start, by frequency. You can try to double and then bid with very strong hands, but I think it's not a great idea.

I experience a fear of struggling with strong hands on these auctions on bidding apps and practice environments, notably cuebids. They stack the deck to give us a strong hand, and modify the bots bidding. Be careful not to assign too much space to hands that don't come up.

[jdiana]

Thanks!

One more question: Do you make any distinction between a higher ranked suit (able to overcall at the two level) and a lower ranked suit (having to overcall at the three level) or a double that forces us to the three level? Obviously, we need to be careful at unfavorable vulnerability but I'm wondering, in general, if we require a little extra to go up a level.

It seems like we will often be at the three level, which may be a little contrary to the LoTT if there are 16 trumps.

Sorry if I'm just thinking out loud - like a lot of things I read, they make prefect sense at the surface level but then I start wondering about some specifics. (OBAR bids are obviously nothing new. Just revisiting them in the context of my one-person book club.)

[DavidKok]

The Law supports bidding 3-over-2 with 16 total trumps. If they make exactly, we are predicted to be one off. So as long as they don't find that dangerous double, we're trading -110 for -50 or -100. Conversely, if we're making then bidding is usually good. The main risk is if we go two off, especially doubled - but now the opponents might compete to their making 3-level contract. All assuming the Law as a given, though, so real world results are a little more volatile.

It gets scary when we might end up in a 7-card fit. Bidding 3-over-2 with 15 total trumps, or when landing in the wrong strain, can be costly. Therefore in general I don't require more points, but I do require more shape. On most hands I will prefer a takeout double or OBAR scrambling 2NT to a voluntary 3-level overcall, and sometimes pass is the least of evils.

I like thinking out loud like this, please don't apologise for it!

[mw64ahw]

jdiana, on 2025-February-26, 09:51, said:

You're right - sorry. I misread the section on alerting doubles.

As an experienced OBAR bidder, what do you do if you have a strong hand? For example, after (1♦)-P-(2♦)-?, what if you have a good heart suit and an opening hand? Do you double then bid it?

It partly depends on how aggressive the opponents are and the system approach.

With aggressive opponents when 1♦-2♦ can be bid on very little I will:

• X with the very strong hand and rebid
• Bid 3M as an Intermediate Jump Overcall
• Bid 2N as some pre-empt
• Bid 2M otherwise.

With the right shape/points partner can then judge whether game is feasible.

[mycroft]

Agreeing strongly with DavidKok. Unless you're playing against "open unbalanced 10s" and "raise on air" pairs, you won't get big (well, game-going) hands, and when you do, it's on 10-card trump fits and other shape where partner is probably "competing" to game anyway.

And there aren't many of those out there. The number of times that you want to push them out of 2-of-a-fit versus the number of times you need to worry about missing a game after they show 2-of-a-fit is like the "penalty or negative double after 1NT" - the pluses are spectacular, but the middling losses when you can't compete add up *fast*.

To me (a *strong* proponent of OBAR BIDS) the biggest downside of the style is that good opponents, when pushed to the 3 level, use the information of who "balanced" to get the trumps right.

[mw64ahw]

mycroft, on 2025-February-26, 22:46, said:

Agreeing strongly with DavidKok. Unless you're playing against "open unbalanced 10s" and "raise on air" pairs, you won't get big (well, game-going) hands, and when you do, it's on 10-card trump fits and other shape where partner is probably "competing" to game anyway.

To me (a *strong* proponent of OBAR BIDS) the biggest downside of the style is that good opponents, when pushed to the 3 level, use the information of who "balanced" to get the trumps right.

Playing an unbalanced ♦ I will open 10s relatively frequently and at FV without a Major partner can raise to 2/3♦ on practically nothing. So in this case the opponents can have well over half the points.

I'm not seeing much downside being pushed to the 3-level after OBAR bids. 2 is easier to make than 3, and I'm not sure it necessarily implies where the trumps sit; I've had occasions where the ops. have a 9-card fit and compete to the 3-level when I'm sitting with 5431 and 4 in their suit. Perhaps it's the level of competition I play against, but I often seem to get the pluses on the part scores when the ops. are down 1 when 2 makes.

[mycroft]

Question: when that happens, was it you, or your partner, who pushed them to the 3 level?

And obviously, "we don't let them play 2 of a fit" is a net plus. Clearly it's harder to make 3 than 2, and in practise it's very hard even at the top level, to work out the right thing to do on every (even most) hands when they do compete, so the opponents do get pushed a lot.

But the "balance in direct seat" style does tend to mean that the short trump hand balances more often than not (especially when they double) and that can lead to astute declarers making one more trick than they might have if they had less to guess on.

[mw64ahw]

mycroft, on 2025-February-27, 08:09, said:

Question: when that happens, was it you, or your partner, who pushed them to the 3 level.

By bidding 2M you are likely pushing them to the 3-level if they want to compete.

mycroft, on 2025-February-27, 08:09, said:

But the "balance in direct seat" style does tend to mean that the short trump hand balances more often than not (especially when they double) and that can lead to astute declarers making one more trick than they might have if they had less to guess on.

Short trump hands may be more frequent, but I'm more likely to bid with trumps as partner will then have ruffing values albeit with a weak hand.