[cencio]

---

south dealer
Thanks

[Cyberyeti]

1♦-(2N ♣/♥)-3♠(competitive, 3♦ would be better) opps now silent
4♣ (cue)-4♦ (cue, high card)
5N (GSF)- 6♠ (A or K + extra length)
7♠

[mike777]

East is NV, double fit, negative zero defense
Please get in the fight.

If east wakes up, now West has a competitive bidding/hand evaluation learning experience that many of us in the forums can learn from.

If nothing else great hand to discuss when ought we start with 2C on 2 suited hands and when do we show 2 suited immediately??

[mw64ahw]

Very much depends on how competitive opponents want to be in ♣/♥, but as North I bid to at least 4♠. As East I compete to at least 5♣ with partner bidding 2♦ as 5+♣4+♥ and knowing we have a double fit.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-25, 08:51, said:

1♦-(2N ♣/♥)-3♠(competitive, 3♦ would be better) opps now silent
4♣ (cue)-4♦ (cue, high card)
5N (GSF)- 6♠ (A or K + extra length)
7♠

Ty for your post.
Could you please elaborate on why you prefer 2NT rather than 2C? Would you ever start 2C with 2 suited hand or is default always show immediately?

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2025-January-25, 09:30, said:

Ty for your post.
Could you please elaborate on why you prefer 2NT rather than 2C? Would you ever start 2C with 2 suited hand or is default always show immediately?

I actually might start with 2♣ or 1♥, we play weak/strong and this is in the middle, but I thought most people would start with 2N. I also misread the E hand as 3433 so I didn't raise, but even so many at my club won't bid at the 4 level with that hand.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-25, 08:51, said:

1♦-(2N ♣/♥)-3♠(competitive, 3♦ would be better) opps now silent

You must be joking. A double fit with a 5+-5+ opposite and no defence? I reckon everyone other than beginners/improvers at the clubs I've played in will bid 4♥ on the East hand.

1♦ - (2NT 5+♥/5+♣) - 3♠ (distributional, not strong in HCP) - (4♥) - ?

I'd probably punt 6♠, I don't have a way of asking for the trump ace, if I did I'd be finding out about it and bidding the grand.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2025-January-25, 10:24, said:

You must be joking. A double fit with a 5+-5+ opposite and no defence? I reckon everyone other than beginners/improvers at the clubs I've played in will bid 4♥ on the East hand.

1♦ - (2NT 5+♥/5+♣) - 3♠ (distributional, not strong in HCP) - (4♥) - ?

I'd probably punt 6♠, I don't have a way of asking for the trump ace, if I did I'd be finding out about it and bidding the grand.

Depends what 2N looks like for you, how do you fancy partner having a reasonbly decent hand xx, AKxxx, x, QJxxx opps take the 5 obvious top tricks and a club ruff, hearts were 2-2 and opps were only making 5, partner can be worse than that and opps still aren't making a slam. Favourable I would agree everybody bids 4♥. The problem at the club is that even if you go for 500 against a making slam, the slam won't be bid at many tables.

[mikeh]

Given the forum this is in, I respectfully suggest that we should try to focus on auctions that would be plausible for inexperienced players, adding our own idiosyncratic ideas as alternatives rather than implying, in any way, that our ideas are ‘normal’.

I think just about anyone beyond the beginner stage understands the unusual 2N overcall, but suggesting that it should show 4+/5+ is imo harmful. There is good reason why it’s ‘normal’ for it to be 5-5 or better….indeed, if one is going to suggest 2N could be 4H 5C and also suggest that east bid 4H….that’s an awful idea imo. A 4=4 fit at tge 4 level with few hcp and no assurance that the opps can’t usefully double or have a slam? At equal vul?

I’ll be unusually, for me, polite and suggest only that I’d love to play against you for serious money. And the alternative I saw of competing to ‘at least 5C’…..let’s play for even higher stakes. Of course, it’s pretty clear, to me, that such statements are based on seeing west’s hand, lol.

Now, what north should do over the obvious 2N is unclear absent agreement, and I think it useful to explain what alternatives are considered mainstream.

Cyber’s suggestion that north bid 3S, with the bid being merely ‘competitive’ is consistent with what is, I think, one of the leading approaches. I haven’t studied Bridge World Standard in its most current form but it certainly used to be and I’d guess still is: 3C would be limit or better in diamonds, 3H limit or better in spades, 3D and 3S less than invitational, double indicates willingness to defend a doubled contract should opener have a suitable hand.

This is by no means universal. I’ve played with a multi-time internationalist and NABC winner who prefers double as the competitive bid in spades, as one example…for him, 3S would be a natural game force.

I like and use the BWS approach so I’d happily bid 3S as north.

Btw, given the forum, I’ll mention The Bridge World. Established in 1929 by Ely Culbertson, it is widely regarded as the best bridge magazine of all time. Imo, The MasterSolvers Club section is worth the subscription price all by itself….it gives well curated and insightful discussions of how to think at the table.

Anyway, after 3S, east has a decision to make. 4H looks automatic….a known 9 card fit with at least an 8 card fit on the side and no defence. So I think most would bid 4H but…..since 3S was not forcing, it does risk pushing the opps into a game they just might not, on a different layout, bid. As it happens, south has a huge hand so it won’t much matter, but passing, so as not to tell N-S anything, isn’t terrible. I would bid, though, in a vain effort to take away a 4H cuebid (or a 4C cue).


Assuming 4H, over to south. He has an incredible hand given the auction, especially his unexpected spade holding and that wonderful heart void.

I’d bid 5H. This is a clear slam try in support of spades, promising first round control, good spades, and good holdings all around.

Over to north. I now disagree with cyber. I just can’t see N-S getting to grand. I don’t see how there’s enough room for north to find out about the club ace let alone the length and strength of the diamond suit. Plus maybe south has something like QJxx void AQJxxx AKx. That’s not a good grand even without the clue that suits are t breaking well. Plus I don’t see how south finds out that north has the diamond King. Bear in mind that at imps one should have a very high degree of confidence (usually put at 75% or better) of 13 tricks in order to bid grand and that at mps it’s usually extremely easy to estimate one’s score if one is in a grand down 1….hint….it’s usually tied for bottom….whereas stopping in 6 and making an overtrick, in a contested auction, is rarely much below average and often at least average.

I’m not saying that my partnerships would or wouldn’t bid the grand…I’m saying that, if we did so, we’d be guessing.

[Cyberyeti]

Quote

Assuming 4H, over to south. He has an incredible hand given the auction, especially his unexpected spade holding and that wonderful heart void.

I’d bid 5H. This is a clear slam try in support of spades, promising first round control, good spades, and good holdings all around.

Over to north. I now disagree with cyber. I just can’t see N-S getting to grand. I don’t see how there’s enough room for north to find out about the club ace let alone the length and strength of the diamond suit. Plus maybe south has something like QJxx void AQJxxx AKx. That’s not a good grand even without the clue that suits are t breaking well. Plus I don’t see how south finds out that north has the diamond King. Bear in mind that at imps one should have a very high degree of confidence (usually put at 75% or better) of 13 tricks in order to bid grand and that at mps it’s usually extremely easy to estimate one’s score if one is in a grand down 1….hint….it’s usually tied for bottom….whereas stopping in 6 and making an overtrick, in a contested auction, is rarely much below average and often at least average.

I’m not saying that my partnerships would or wouldn’t bid the grand…I’m saying that, if we did so, we’d be guessing.

N bids 6♦ over 5♥, what can he have, no club king, presumably not great hearts as he wouldn't value them much at this point, K♦ surely he has ♠A and S can bid 7

[thepossum]

Can I be very beginner and go 4NT Blackwood over 4 hearts and stop in 6 spades to be safe 🙂

On some days I may risk a 2club opening

[mw64ahw]

With one partner I open this hand 2♦ as a Rainbow 2♦, 24+ BD or Primary ♦ not xx55. How does your novice /beginner respond?

[mw64ahw]

With one partner I open this hand 2♦ as a Rainbow 2♦, 24+ BD or Primary ♦ not xx55. How does your novice /beginner respond?

[jillybean]

mw64ahw, on 2025-January-26, 06:42, said:

With one partner I open this hand 2♦ as a Rainbow 2♦, 24+ BD or Primary ♦ not xx55. How does your novice /beginner respond?

Stop it!!

[akwoo]

mw64ahw, on 2025-January-26, 06:42, said:

With one partner I open this hand 2♦ as a Rainbow 2♦, 24+ BD or Primary ♦ not xx55. How does your novice /beginner respond?

They would forget that's what you were playing and pass.

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2025-January-26, 07:53, said:

Stop it!!