[mycroft]

That's one of my meta-rules: 1x-1y; 2y-3x is "double fit, forcing". I bid 1♠ *because of* that rule. Yes, after 2♦ things get ugly, might not be able to show my fit before 4♥, and have not shown my (lack of) extras, but as DavidKok says, 3-card limit raises are tough in a wide-range 1-bid style.

2♣ is fine (although I'd prefer 5 clubs, after 1♥-2♣; 3♣-3♥ we're in a similar spot. Especially if 2♣ wasn't game forcing; then I have to rely on the meta-agreement again. But if we're not playing 2/1, I can't assume that, unless we've had long discussions on "what's forcing". Which can be done, but 2/1 GF is just much easier). Not sure you ever get to find the spade fit if you do, though, which if you end up being in slam, may play better. Absent a conventional system over 1M-2♣, of course; but nobody who has to be worried partner will pass 3♥ is playing one of those.

These are the auctions I live for playing Precision. Of course, if there is slam in the offing, it starts 1♣, not 1♥; but usually that's easier too, even with interference.

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2025-January-23, 07:15, said:

---

These players are not playing 2/1, although some have shown an interest in learning.
If you were playing with me and bid 2♣/1♥, I would show you a 6 card heart suit.

Playing the Schuler Shift

---

Information leak, we now know South is 46xx

How do we know South is 46xx?

[mw64ahw]

jdiana, on 2025-January-23, 10:58, said:

How do we know South is 46xx?

I'm not sure it does

SchulerShift Structure

1M -- 2X -- ?

2Y Unchanged. 5-4 or better in the two suits

• 2M A waiting bid promising exactly a 5-card major and denying extra distribution.Could be 5-3-3-2 with stoppers in both unbid suits.
  
• 2NT Artificial, showing a 6+ card major.
  
• 3Y (non-jump)5-5 in the bid suits or 5-4 with extras.
  
• Raise4-card support for responder and no singleton
  
• 3Y (jump)Splinter raise of responder's suit.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2025-January-23, 10:58, said:

How do we know South is 46xx?

In the first auction I support spades 45xx, in the second auction I use the SShift x6xx . What am I missing?

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2025-January-23, 12:06, said:

In the first auction I support spades 45xx, in the second auction I use the SShift x6xx . What am I missing?

1h-2C
2NT= 6H and denies (non minimum hand with
4S. ). However you could argue all hands with 6h and 4s are non minimum by definition...Murky to borrow a word 😊

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-January-23, 12:21, said:

1h-2C
2NT= 6H and denies (non minimum hand with
4S. ). However you could argue all hands with 6h and 4s are non minimum by definition...Murky to borrow a word 😊

Hmm

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2025-January-23, 12:06, said:

In the first auction I support spades 45xx, in the second auction I use the SShift x6xx . What am I missing?

I thought you meant we would know that after your second example, at the table. I guess you meant "information leak" in the context of your post?

I'm just generally confused. AFAIK, the 2NT bid says nothing about how many spades opener has. It just shows 6 hearts.

OK - I just went back and looked again at Gumperz's article. In response to this question in the comments:

If 1H:2m,2S shows extras, presumably this means you are rebidding 2NT on a minimum hand with 6 hearts and 4 spades? I guess this works OK, it just feels a bit counter-intuitive to bypass the spade bid.

Gumperz says:

The extras shown by a reverse can be in high cards or distribution so ♠KQxx, ♥AQTxxx, ♦x, ♣xx is clearly worth a reverse into 2♠ on the auction: 1♥ -- 2♦ -- ? When the shape is only 5-4 and opener holds in the 11-13 HCP range thats when the reverse should clearly be avoided (IMO).

(This after having said earlier that 1H-2m-2S is a reverse, showing extras.)

[mike777]

 jdiana, on 2025-January-23, 12:29, said:

I thought you meant we would know that after your second example, at the table. I guess you meant "information leak" in the context of your post?

I'm just generally confused. AFAIK, the 2NT bid says nothing about how many spades opener has. It just shows 6 hearts.

Yes which brings the discussion back full circle
6h and 4spades which do you show first?
1H-2c or 2d
?

With a clear non minimum hand I would definitely rebid 2S not 2NT.
This loudly announcing hey partner for a change I got a real hand, wake up 😊


With a typical junky minimum opener
Probably 2NT showing my 6H.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-January-23, 12:42, said:

With a clear non minimum hand I would definitely rebid 2S not 2NT

Silent in regards to anny extra length in the heart suit?

[mike777]

Yes silent.

[thepossum]

Don't tell anyone but my first inclination was 2Nt
-reasoning obvious I hope - game hearts/NT I hope. Tell me more

Sorry for being so late - the threadhas now progressed

I play Possum variant of Jacoby - communicates so much immediately - just a bit risky if partner has a minumum - my partner can pass although hopefully never

Do we know what South has yet?

[jillybean]

---

[jdiana]

Surprising that East passed.

Our simple auction (unobstructed) would probably go 1♥ - 2♣ (GF) - 2♠ - 3♠ - 4♦ (control) - 4NT - 5♥ - 6♠.

Yes, we would miss an awesome 9-card fit.

[mw64ahw]

What do you use 1♥-2♣-3♠ for? Typically I guess this bid is undefined for most so why not use as 4621/4612 SI? Now 4m can be used to set the suit and the intermediate bid can then show the ♣ singleton.

In have the 1♥-2♦-3♠ bid defined as such in my 'non-normal' approach, but non-slamming when responder only has a constructive raise.

[Cyberyeti]

If south is bidding 2♠ they lack a pulse, 4♦/3♠/4♠ would all feature higher than 2♠ in my book.

You're making game opposite KQxx and out most of the time

Edited for clarity - over 1♥-1♠

[jdiana]

mw64ahw, on 2025-January-24, 02:30, said:

What do you use 1♥-2♣-3♠ for? Typically I guess this bid is undefined for most so why not use as 4621/4612 SI? Now 4m can be used to set the suit and the intermediate bid can then show the ♣ singleton.

In have the 1♥-2♦-3♠ bid defined as such in my 'non-normal' approach, but non-slamming when responder only has a constructive raise.

1♥ - 2♣ - 3♠ would be a splinter in support of clubs. (If we switched to using 2♣ as GF, clubs or balanced, I guess that would change.)

[jdiana]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-24, 03:24, said:

If south is bidding 2♠ they lack a pulse, 4♦/3♠/4♠ would all feature higher than 2♠ in my book.

You're making game opposite KQxx and out most of the time

Checking my pulse now, but I don't understand this comment. We're already in a game force; we're not missing a game.

Would your auction start differently? 1♥ - 2♣ - 4♦ makes no sense to me.

[Cyberyeti]

jdiana, on 2025-January-24, 06:51, said:

Checking my pulse now, but I don't understand this comment. We're already in a game force; we're not missing a game.

Would your auction start differently? 1♥ - 2♣ - 4♦ makes no sense to me.

Was talking about the 1♥-1♠-2♠ auction, I have no expertise in the 2♣ artificial GF one

[jdiana]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-24, 07:02, said:

Was talking about the 1♥-1♠-2♠ auction, I have no expertise in the 2♣ artificial GF one

Sorry - I misunderstood.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-January-24, 03:24, said:

If south is bidding 2♠ they lack a pulse, 4♦/3♠/4♠ would all feature higher than 2♠ in my book.

You're making game opposite KQxx and out most of the time

Yes, lacking experience, hand evaluation skills, confidence in bidding.