[blackshoe]

The alert, or more correctly the announcement, for a minor suit opening that could be on fewer than three cards is no longer "could be short". You state the minimum number of cards possible, e.g. "could be two" or "could be one" or "could be zero".

[blackshoe]

 mycroft, on 2024-October-28, 19:04, said:

Yeah, I know, the same people who gripe about "all the Alerts" are Pavlovian in their response to one. They'll even ask as Alerter's LHO, they need to know so badly. And then still be upset about it. I have no idea what to do for them except remind them, again, that they can wait until the end of the auction and get everything (and it has the added benefit of not helping the opponents remember their system!)

This is good. They alert. That's okay. Don't ask unless you need to know right now (because it affects your call) what it means. At the end of the auction, either before you lead or after your partner puts the opening lead face down (if he has a habit of not doing that, shoot him) ask "Please explain your auction". When they obviously have no clue what you're asking try "please explain every call you made in this auction". If that doesn't work, call the director. (Last time I called the director in this situation, after hearing why she was called, she asked me "which call do you want to know about?" I replied "all of them!" :-))

[Shugart23]

blackshoe, on 2024-October-29, 14:13, said:

And I have said that several times, both here and on BridgeWinners. And at face to face games.

Thanks all !.... Just to close this topic out.... if bidding goes 1NT (announce 10-12) -Pass - 2H -all pass.....did we need to announce or alert that the 2H bid is to play ? Do we need to pre-alert our weak NT ? Do we need to pre-alert that we use Journalist leads?

[jillybean]

Shugart23, on 2024-November-03, 05:57, said:

Thanks all !.... Just to close this topic out.... if bidding goes 1NT (announce 10-12) -Pass - 2H -all pass.....did we need to announce or alert that the 2H bid is to play ? Do we need to pre-alert our weak NT ? Do we need to pre-alert that we use Journalist leads?

2H is natural - no alert

No need to pre-alert your NT range. We often do out of consideration and to avoid the "I thought you played 15-17!!" when our opps don't listen to the nt range announcement,

Journalistic leads, I don't know

[mycroft]

No, No, and No - but it must be *clearly* marked on your card, and when they ask anything related to defensive carding, you must give a complete answer, including "we lead lower of two touching honours". Again, the J word should be avoided, especially against those who play Rusinow (wanna bet the difference isn't what any of the four people at the table think it is(1)? wanna bet that at least one of the four don't know the other term for this style(2)?)

Oh, but be *very* prepared for the stares and the tanks (and the snarky questions) while they wait for you to announce "spades". I do wish that had been added to the required Announcements, even though it would be very hard to generalize.

(1) I know I don't, and I've read the book. Don't play it, don't care, it's your job to tell me what it means.
(2) Witness all the Hamilton players out East (and the Pottage players in the UK) when faced with that crazy misspelled Capp-something-or-other convention.

[shugart24]

mycroft, on 2024-November-03, 11:20, said:

No, No, and No - but it must be *clearly* marked on your card, and when they ask anything related to defensive carding, you must give a complete answer, including "we lead lower of two touching honours". Again, the J word should be avoided, especially against those who play Rusinow (wanna bet the difference isn't what any of the four people at the table think it is(1)? wanna bet that at least one of the four don't know the other term for this style(2)?)

Oh, but be *very* prepared for the stares and the tanks (and the snarky questions) while they wait for you to announce "spades". I do wish that had been added to the required Announcements, even though it would be very hard to generalize.

(1) I know I don't, and I've read the book. Don't play it, don't care, it's your job to tell me what it means.
(2) Witness all the Hamilton players out East (and the Pottage players in the UK) when faced with that crazy misspelled Capp-something-or-other convention.

What I don't like is opponents open 1NT and their partner bids 2H intending it as a transfer, but opener hasn't announced it and I'm sitting with the Ace of hearts with some others. I'd like to double (for lead) but I don't want to wake up the opener, and maybe I am wrong, and that 2H is natural. So I wait a couple extra seconds to give the opener a chance to say 'transfer'. When he doesn't say transfer, I pass. And then the Opener bids 2S, all pass, and my partner doesn't get off to a heart lead. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, what do they do ?

[jillybean]

shugart24, on 2024-November-03, 12:07, said:

What I don't like is opponents open 1NT and their partner bids 2H intending it as a transfer, but opener hasn't announced it and I'm sitting with the Ace of hearts with some others. I'd like to double (for lead) but I don't want to wake up the opener, and maybe I am wrong, and that 2H is natural. So I wait a couple extra seconds to give the opener a chance to say 'transfer'. When he doesn't say transfer, I pass. And then the Opener bids 2S, all pass, and my partner doesn't get off to a heart lead. Has anyone else run into this, and if so, what do they do ?

Call the Director

[Shugart23]

What’s a director going to do? Probably pin it on me saying I should have known it’s a transfer because it’s on their card

[jillybean]

 Shugart23, on 2024-November-03, 12:29, said:

What’s a director going to do? Probably pin it on me saying I should have known it’s a transfer because it’s on their card

Did your opponents have a convention card?
Players are required to announce a transfer bid.

You may have been damaged, I don't buy the "you should have known/asked/protected yourself" but that's the ruling you will often receive.

[Shugart23]

Yeah. Don’t disagree. Similarly 1c by partner (strong) -2c by opponents, no alert- now your bid. I believe the 2c bid is not a cue bid by definition, so what do you do when it turns out they meant it as both majors. Same thing, I suppose

[jillybean]

Shugart23, on 2024-November-03, 12:54, said:

Yeah. Don’t disagree. Similarly 1c by partner (strong) -2c by opponents, no alert- now your bid. I believe the 2c bid is not a cue bid by definition, so what do you do when it turns out they meant it as both majors. Same thing, I suppose

That may be self alerting, I assume 1C was alerted? You may find the answer in the alert regulations but reading them myself gives me a headache.

Don't expect ACBL games to be run in accordance with the laws. Don't expect anything like full disclosure from your opponents or protection when you are damaged. Lower your expectations and you will have a "nice game"

[shugart24]

jillybean, on 2024-November-03, 13:21, said:

That may be self alerting, I assume 1C was alerted? You may find the answer in the alert regulations but reading them myself gives me a headache.

Don't expect ACBL games to be run in accordance with the laws. Don't expect anything like full disclosure from your opponents or protection when you are damaged. Lower your expectations and you will have a "nice game"

Fortunately, it's rare occurrence and I am very tolerant of beginners. Occasionally one gets burned. Two days ago I was playing on BBO in a free 8 board tournament and opponent opened 2C and partner responded 2D. We competed to 2H.. Turns out his card says 2C is strong (like we expected), but in reality, his bid was a transfer to 2D and they got the contract for 3D and a top . Both players claiming to be advanced. Those are the ones that bug me.

[mycroft]

Call the director before partner calls over 2♠ if you can. If you can convince him that the failure to Announce was a problem, the auction can be rolled back (but can't if partner calls).

"but everybody knows" "but everybody plays transfers" and all the rest. Which is, of course, why you're going to get dirty looks, etc. when you don't.

There used to be a "experienced players are expected to protect themselves" rule; it has changed (now it's "Penalties for failing to Alert are not automatic. However, a player who is misinformed by an opponent’s failure to Alert will be protected.") I'm not thrilled with it, but it's to our benefit here (and you can point it out in the Alert Procedure, too).

But if you're at all interested in "I don't want to wake them up" *and also* "I will claim damage when they don't get it right", then I don't care, that's never been the rules. You can ask, or you can hope they're screwing up, you don't get both.

Having said that, your next question is 100% your problem, and it's 100% your problem because you're right, nobody knew what was Alertable before (and *all* the strong club players got indignant when the opponents-who-don't-play-it got it wrong). Now, it's easy (for them): "Do NOT Alert [] 4: After an Artificial Opening Bid, any bid in the same suit or in a suit shown by the Artificial Opening Bid." It doesn't matter if it's natural, majors, or an invitation to you to go to the club tonight, it's not Alertable. You want to know? Ask.

[pescetom]

shugart24, on 2024-November-03, 13:34, said:

Two days ago I was playing on BBO in a free 8 board tournament and opponent opened 2C and partner responded 2D. We competed to 2H.. Turns out his card says 2C is strong (like we expected), but in reality, his bid was a transfer to 2D and they got the contract for 3D and a top . Both players claiming to be advanced. Those are the ones that bug me.

mycroft, on 2024-November-03, 13:56, said:

Having said that, your next question is 100% your problem, and it's 100% your problem because you're right, nobody knew what was Alertable before (and *all* the strong club players got indignant when the opponents-who-don't-play-it got it wrong). Now, it's easy (for them): "Do NOT Alert [] 4: After an Artificial Opening Bid, any bid in the same suit or in a suit shown by the Artificial Opening Bid." It doesn't matter if it's natural, majors, or an invitation to you to go to the club tonight, it's not Alertable. You want to know? Ask.

Is this a reply to the quote above? If so I fail to follow you.
It already seems (yet another) weird regulation: do NOT alert the suit bid artificially, even if the bid said nothing about that suit or denied holding it (?).
But here (at least as asserted) the artificial 2C was explained on the System Card as strong with no reference to any specific suit, but the real agreement was diamonds.
How does that regulation make the real agreement not alertable and the failure to disclose legal?
ACBL is a strange world.

[Shugart23]

No I was just whining

[blackshoe]

 Shugart23, on 2024-November-03, 05:57, said:

Thanks all !.... Just to close this topic out.... if bidding goes 1NT (announce 10-12) -Pass - 2H -all pass.....did we need to announce or alert that the 2H bid is to play ? Do we need to pre-alert our weak NT ? Do we need to pre-alert that we use Journalist leads?

No. No. No.

[blackshoe]

 mycroft, on 2024-November-03, 11:20, said:

Witness all the Hamilton players out East (and the Pottage players in the UK) when faced with that crazy misspelled Capp-something-or-other convention.

You mean Helms? :-)

[mycroft]

 pescetom, on 2024-November-03, 15:46, said:

Is this a reply to the quote above? If so I fail to follow you.

And you would be right to.

No, this is the ACBL's answer to the perennial "how was I supposed to know (1♣ showing 16 HCP and 0+clubs)-2♣ was majors? Clearly that's Alertable, we didn't show clubs!" (conversely "my opponents don't know what their defence to Precision is, so I won't ask about 2♣. If it turns out to have been Michaels, and they didn't Alert, *and* we got a bad score, we'll complain. But if it was Michaels, and they didn't Alert and treated it as the (non-Alertable) clubs, and we get it for 800, no worries there, mate. And it won't matter if they didn't Alert because they thought it was not Alertable or because they thought it was natural, we still get to have the director if we get a bad score.")

So now, *no* meaning for 2♣ over 1♣ is Alertable. Even if it is, as I said before, opener's LHO flirting with anyone at the table.

You need to know? Ask. You want to keep them in the dark? You failed to ask in a position where *you* knew you needed to if you cared what it meant, that's your problem.

As a Precision player myself, I find this completely acceptable. Put the onus of "getting it right" on the pair that actually sees it more than 4 boards a weekend.

[barmar]

 shugart24, on 2024-November-03, 12:07, said:

What I don't like is opponents open 1NT and their partner bids 2H intending it as a transfer, but opener hasn't announced it and I'm sitting with the Ace of hearts with some others. I'd like to double (for lead) but I don't want to wake up the opener, and maybe I am wrong, and that 2H is natural.

You have to decide which is more likely: They're not playing transfers, or they just forgot to announce.

If it's a strong NT, I would always assume the latter. I haven't run into duplicate players not using transfers in ages, I'm happy to believe there aren't any.

If they're playing weak NT, then natural, non-forcing responses are possible, although I don't know how common it is. Then you do have a bit of a conundrum. But I also believe that most people playing unusual systems know what's alertable. So if they don't announce it as a transfer, even after I pause to give them time to notice the bid, I'll assume it's natural.

If we get a bad board as a direct result of the failure to alert, I'd call the TD and explain that you would have doubled for the lead with a proper alert. The explanation that a natural response to weak NT is a clear possibility removes the onus on you to protect yourself.

[blackshoe]

Heh. On Sunday, after the f2f game, we were discussing whether 1NT 15-17 needs an announcement. I said "yes, per ACBL Regulations". The other three said "no". The director/club owner then stuck his nose in, saying three things: 1) It doesn't need an announcement, 2) clubs can make their own regulations, and 3) it's not a regulation.

As far as I'm concerned 1) needs the clarification that he's talking about his own club, not the ACBL, 2) is true, but IMO they should be published in writing (he has not and will not do that), and 3) is pure BS.