[pescetom]

 foobar, on 2022-January-11, 16:44, said:

Out the curiosity, do you feel the same way about Sharko's document today? It will be interesting to know the parts that were tougher to understand.

I'll go through it again this weekend and let you know.

[enigmisto]

 foobar, on 2022-January-11, 11:07, said:

See the resources mentioned above (Sharko, Richard). Kit Woolsey published a book called KK Relay (see the BridgeWinners shop). In the past, I would have recommended the excellent b2sym for software, but perhaps, it's best to line up a like-minded partner, and practice using a BBO teaching table (using the resources mentioned above).

This forum is an excellent resource if it clicks, and there are specific questions.

I have begun reading KK Relay, thanks to the recommendation here. This has to be the thickest Bridge book I've ever purchased! Very impressive depth and clarity of content.

But I was surprised to discover that despite its epic length, the book doesn't really describe a complete a bidding system (at least from what I've seen so far). It appears to just describe a 1C Relay for your favorite Strong 1C system. What do the authors play over other openings? What bidding system are you KK Relay fans pairing the relay with?

How does KK Relay differ from the Symmetric Relay described in Nick Hughes' book?

[foobar]

 enigmisto, on 2022-January-23, 16:36, said:

But I was surprised to discover that despite its epic length, the book doesn't really describe a complete a bidding system (at least from what I've seen so far). It appears to just describe a 1C Relay for your favorite Strong 1C system.

That's a very legitimate critique of the book. I can't speak for the authors' intent, but my guess is that they wanted to focus on introducing the reader to symmetric relay concepts, and other things took a backseat. That said, the book does describe a 2♣ GFR over a 1M opening, though the "shape first" approach means that it's symmetric+2 perforce, and not something that I would recommend. For alternatives, see the discussion thread here (scroll down for the final version): 1M-2C GFR. Note that using 1N as a GFR will achieve symmetric+0, but that comes with its own set of issues.

 enigmisto, on 2022-January-23, 16:36, said:

What do the authors play over other openings? What bidding system are you KK Relay fans pairing the relay with?

Kit plays Precision 1♦ / 2♦ with a mini-NT (10-12) NV with 5CM AFAIK. There's no reason to stick with this template, and you can pair it with whatever you like. FWIW, my preference to use something like SCUM since it makes it possible to use the exact same relay over 1♣, 1♣ (reverse relay), 1M, 2m, etc.

 enigmisto, on 2022-January-23, 16:36, said:

How does KK Relay differ from the Symmetric Relay described in Nick Hughes' book?

SCAMP is a 4-card major (maybe canape) system, and my recollection is that the 1♣ relay responses are designed to very similar to the 1♦ (♠, not ♥), 1♥ (♥, not ♠), and 1♠ (both majors) openings. You can find a description of the relays here:SCAMP

[enigmisto]

I don't know anything about SCUM. Where would I learn more about it? Is there a book that describes it in detail?

I'm definitely interested to see more examples of how symmetric relay can be applied pervasively across a bidding system, as opposed to just in the 1C opening. Any pointers would be appreciated.

[foobar]

 enigmisto, on 2022-January-24, 17:38, said:

I don't know anything about SCUM. Where would I learn more about it? Is there a book that describes it in detail?

I'm definitely interested to see more examples of how symmetric relay can be applied pervasively across a bidding system, as opposed to just in the 1C opening. Any pointers would be appreciated.

I have sent you a DM so that we don't hijack this thread.

[pilun]

I just added another simple video.
4 semi-random BBO hands, strong club sequences.

https://youtu.be/eOmkmK3HrvQ

I'm less interested in what's best, rather how to sell symmetric to a wider audience.
As such, our method tends towards simple and consistent.

[pescetom]

 pilun, on 2022-January-26, 23:54, said:

I just added another simple video.
4 semi-random BBO hands, strong club sequences.

https://youtu.be/eOmkmK3HrvQ

I'm less interested in what's best, rather how to sell symmetric to a wider audience.
As such, our method tends towards simple and consistent.

Thanks.
Very useful, although I struggled to understand your 6♥ derail on #36 and in general the unalerted bids by E needed more explanation.
But one can't make an omelette without breaking eggs

[pilun]

 pescetom, on 2022-February-03, 16:50, said:

Thanks.
Very useful, although I struggled to understand your 6♥ derail on #36 and in general the unalerted bids by E needed more explanation.
But one can't make an omelette without breaking eggs

6♥ was a miclick by me. No undos in this mode.
It's assumed that the viewers have the relay structure in front of them.

[PrecisionL]

Keylime & I have been using a simple relay system for 10+ years with our C3: (Copious Canape Club) Strong ♣ opening: 16+ hcp or any 4-loser hand.

The Relays after a Positive Response are simple to identify the 2nd suit without usually showing the distribution in the other 2 suits. This approach allows setting the Trump Suit as a Beta for Controls (when opener has a fit) under 3NT and to end the bidding if slam seems remote without too much information leakage. CABs are available after Beta responses. If opener has a non-fitting hand for either of responder's suits, he can make a SAB-3 ASK and often learns if responder is 0-1 / 2 / 3+ cards in opener's suit of interest. We have found this simple and easy on the memory.

Negative Response to 1♣:

1♦: 0-6(7) hcp.

GF Responses to 1♣:

1♥: (a) 4+♠ (denies 5-4 or better in the Majors), or (b) 14+ Balanced (4333, 4432, 5332).

1♠: 4+♥ (denies 5-4 or better in the majors).

1NT: Majors 5-4 or better.

2♣: 1 or both minors (No 4M and not 5-5 in the minors).

2♦: 8-13 hcp Balanced (includes ALL 5332 hands) Different than KK Design.

2♥: 5-5 Hands (excludes Majors).

2♠: All 4441 hands.

2NT+ TRANSFER: 6-cd Suits missing one of the top 3 honors.

3NT: AKQxxxx Any Suit.

Cheapest follow-on by the 1♣ opener to the Positive Response is the relay asking about suits (but not shortness).

1♥ - 1♠ RELAY for the various combinations with 4 or 5♠, 1NT REBID = 14+ Balanced.

1♠ - 1NT = RELAY for the various combinations with 4 or 5♥.

2♦ - 2♥ ASKS do you have a 5-cd Suit? 2♠ = NO, Otherwise Transfer to 1-Under the 5-cd Suit.

2♥ - 2♠ ASKS for the Suits: 1-Under Touching Suits or Non-Touching Suits with a Major.

2♠ - 2NT ASKS for the Singleton.

2NT+ Acceptance of the Transfer is ASKING for Key Cards in Trump Suit (1 or 2).