[Cyberyeti]

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North deals, can you bid the almost cold grand with certainty (I'm interested in approach forcing systems mainly, although non relay strong club also)

[nige1]

Cyberyeti 'North deals, can you bid the almost cold grand with certainty (I'm interested in approach forcing systems mainly, although non relay strong club also)'
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Board rotated to make West dealer.
Thank you, MikeH. for the correction
Unconvincing
Practicing. Jasmine ♣
Every call a kludge
West is likely to correct to 7N

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This post has been edited by nige1: 2021-November-06, 13:25

[mikl_plkcc]

/ - 2♣
2♥! (2 controls) - 3♣
3♠ - 6♠

Sorry, but I can't bid a grand missing either an A or 2 Ks. The fact that 7♠ makes is because a ♦ loser is discarded by a ♥, which can't be bid.

[Cyberyeti]

nige1, on 2021-November-06, 09:41, said:

Cyberyeti 'North deals, can you bid the almost cold grand with certainty (I'm interested in approach forcing systems mainly, although non relay strong club also)'
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Board rotated to make West dealer.
Unconvincing
Practicing. Jasmine ♣
Every call a kludge

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This was the sort of issue I had with this, I think our auction would be:

1♠-3♣(GF fit or single suited, very decent club suit in either case)
3♠(min)-4♦(cue, fit type)
4♥-4N
5♦(1/4)-5♥(Q?)
5N(yes, no side K, but other stuff, likely to be ♦Q, ♥Q or stiff club or all the above)-6♥(K♥, no other K)
7♠

Worst case partner's hand is something like AKxx, Kx, xx, AQ10xx, but partner has probably bid more strongly than that hand.

[mikeh]

nige1, on 2021-November-06, 09:41, said:

Cyberyeti 'North deals, can you bid the almost cold grand with certainty (I'm interested in approach forcing systems mainly, although non relay strong club also)'
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Board rotated to make West dealer.
Unconvincing
Practicing. Jasmine ♣
Every call a kludge
West is likely to correct to 7N

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The weak hand is dealer.

Plus opening 1S as west is a call that might be found by fewer than 1% of the bridge world.

[LBengtsson]

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3♦ short and gf. shows control. north with 2 extra trumps and near maximum pass goes to grand. it is very not likely partner has one ace here. trump lead may stop grand being made if different cards in south hand but there are other opportunity in play.

[mikeh]

In both my partnerships we’d start wit Pass, with the strong hand then opening 1C.

We play transfer response

1C. 1H
3H. 4H

3H is an invitational or better splinter, showing precisely a stiff heart…voids bid 4H

4H is basically mandatory, to show the heart Ace (we wouldn’t cue the King after a splinter in the suit) and a good hand in the context of having passed originally (although this hand is good enough to cue as an unpassed hand…this hand is monstrous opposite any 15+ with 4 trump and a stiff heart)

Opener is kind of stuck at this point. Responder might have 6 spades, since we require better suit quality to open a weak two in first seat at unfavourable vulnerability, but the odds are that he has 5. Maybe even only 4 but the heart cuebid, with only Qxxx, would not be attractive on many hands.

I think opener keycards.

4N. 5C
5D

5C 1 keycard
5D Queen ask

Here’s a problem. Responder has a huge hand but opener hasn’t promised all the keycards. He might be planning on playing 5S if responder lacks the spade Queen.

At the same time, responder can count a lot of tricks. AKxx x Ax Axxxxx offers a good play for grand even on a diamond lead. But AKxx x KJx AKxxx is down off the top on a diamond lead.

So he can’t take control. Bidding 6C to show the spade Queen and a useful club holding is tempting. I think that it is logical, in this specific auction, for this to be a stiff. Why? Because with the club King and the heart Ace, I think the correct cue over the splinter is 4C…hoping for 4D over which one bids 4H.

However, with most partners (including mine, who are at least as strong as I am), this is the sort of thing I’d be hesitant to try, probably reserving this analysis for the post-mortem. I’d do it in a bidding contest, but at the table I’d have to be in the rare (for me) glass half full frame of mind. Obviously opener is bidding grand in spades over 6C….even with AKxx x Ax AQJxxx he can’t count 13 tricks even if he assumes I have the club King and any grand that makes will be a good board no matter the form of scoring.

In short, I’m unlikely to reach this one.but I’d get there on a good day.

Btw, transfer responses have no affect on this…the auction would be the same after 1C 1S

Finally, one of my partners and I are exploring using 1C 1H (spades) 2N, or 1C 1D (hearts) 2N as 17-29 with 4 card support, since we don5 need it for 17-19 balanced. We’re still working on the details so I’m not sure it would help here. Responder would make an artificial slam try with 3C but we’re still discussing how opener proceeds thereafter.

[nige1]

mikeh, on 2021-November-06, 12:28, said:

The weak hand is dealer.
Plus opening 1S as west is a call that might be found by fewer than 1% of the bridge world.

I've corrected my diagram Thank you, MikeH
But my bidding judgement is incorrigible

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2021-November-06, 12:58, said:

Finally, one of my partners and I are exploring using 1C 1H (spades) 2N, or 1C 1D (hearts) 2N as 17-29 with 4 card support, since we don5 need it for 17-19 balanced. We’re still working on the details so I’m not sure it would help here. Responder would make an artificial slam try with 3C but we’re still discussing how opener proceeds thereafter.

This is similar to what we play:
1♣-1♠
2N(GF unbal)-3♥(there is a semi forced artificial 3♣ here so this shows 10+ cards in spades and hearts 5-5 or 6+-4+)
4♦(I have a fit for one of your majors and a huge hand)-4♠(6+-4)
4N-5♦(1/4)
5♥-5N(no Ks but extras)
6♥(K♥, no minor king)-7♠(impossible to visualise a hand that can force to game opposite a 5 count then slam invite opposite what could still be a lot less than we have that isn't at least a good shot at making the grand)

We would routinely open 1♠ btw, it's a 9 count 6-4 and the singleton is small, I don't like the Qx but it's not enough to stop me opening it.

[apollo1201]

64 majors with a lousy suit is too much for me to open a weak 2. I don’t need a lot more to open 1S btw (eg all of my meager collection of points in my suits). So pass for me.

The rest is pretty natural.

1C (planning to jump shift next) - 1S

3D (fit + D control + sg H, better than a splinter, so 20+ HCPs) - 4NT (now I have a tremendous hand, 6 trumps, A facing the sg, even the DQ might be useful, as for the C sg we’ll have to live with that)

5C (4) - 5NT (sth more to say? 7 can’t be ruled out, if his C are headed by AK eg)

6H (HK, no minor K, and not enough to bid 7 myself) - urgh… that wasn’t the best news of the day, but AKxx K Axx AQJxx are enough if the 5th C can be established and 2H ruffed…so 7S be it!

[Douglas43]

If the opening bid is 2♠ how about:

2♠ - 2NT (query -Ogust responses)
3♥ (bad suit max points) - 4♣ (advance cue)
3♥ cue - 5♦ (cue)
6♣ (cue) - 7♠

Mind you, at the table I'd probably just blast 6♠

[Gilithin]

Just how "almost cold" is this? In theory 3 red suit cards can be ruffed but after the assumed trump lead, there is something of a shortage of entries and a risk of getting overruffed in clubs. It may well be a good grand slam but I would hesitate to call it cold. As far as the bidding goes, if you say you are playing 2/1 GF with 3 weak 2s and your auction starts anything other than Pass - 1♣, you should probably work on being neutral when you get presented with DD bidding problems. If you are from Western Europe, a 2m opening from South is perfectly ok. Some Northern Europeans might consider a 2♦ or 2♥ opening from North to show both majors.

This is one of the small number of hands that benefit greatly from one of the various GF gadgets. The most logical is the one Mike describes, using a 2NT rebid in TWalsh, but there are a few about. The problem is that basic US bidding systems just do not allow for holding a hand this strong with support and a singleton king. On this hand splintering does no harm but there are many combinations where such a splinter just causes more harm than good. In any case, without a gadget Mike's auction looks right up to 5♦. Should 6♣ now really be a singleton or should it be the ♣Q? I think the simpler way is for North to bid 5NT there, which gives space for South to make a 6♣ ask. North can now show a singleton (jump in trump suit if you play traditional RKCB):

P - 1♣ -- 1♠ - 3♥ -- 4♥ - 4NT -- 5♣ - 5♦ -- 5NT - 6♣ -- 7♠. Easy when you can see 26 cards and are told where to end up!

[Winstonm]

It's a good problem. The difficulty for me is the big hand's second bid.

P-P-1C-P
1S-P-?

I don't like a splinter into a singleton honor card and 4S isn't right on this type hand IMO so I'm left with either 3D, which confuses the issue about spade support or 4C, which is good for spade support but overdoes the suit quality of the clubs. All in all, I like 4C the best.

After 4C, I think it proper for partner to bid 4H. At this point I can use keycard. I think over the response I can assume the spade Q because of the 4H cue, so I don't need to ask and can simply show all the controls with 5N. If partner follows that with 6C (no guarantee of that) I can bid 7S.

Of course, it's easier to get there knowing I should - seeing only one hand would be harder.

[smerriman]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-06, 15:44, said:

I don't like a splinter into a singleton honor card

If you were presented the same hand but with a small heart instead of the king, would you consider splintering?

(Does the king then make this worse?)

[sfi]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-November-06, 08:52, said:

North deals, can you bid the almost cold grand with certainty (I'm interested in approach forcing systems mainly, although non relay strong club also)

How about:

1S - 2NT (GF spade raise)
3C (shortage) - 4NT (KC ask)
5C (1) - 5D (SQ?)
6S (yes) - 7S

The East hand wants to ask questions rather than provide information, hence starting with Jacoby 2NT.

[Winstonm]

smerriman, on 2021-November-06, 16:15, said:

If you were presented the same hand but with a small heart instead of the king, would you consider splintering?

(Does the king then make this worse?)

Yes, I would more likely splinter with a similar hand. The reason is that my belief is that splinter bids are designed to help partner evaluate his holdings. If I splinter in a singleton K partner will not evaluate correctly his QJ10x when he is expecting me to hold x or void.

[Cyberyeti]

Gilithin, on 2021-November-06, 15:39, said:

Just how "almost cold" is this? In theory 3 red suit cards can be ruffed but after the assumed trump lead, there is something of a shortage of entries and a risk of getting overruffed in clubs. It may well be a good grand slam but I would hesitate to call it cold. As far as the bidding goes, if you say you are playing 2/1 GF with 3 weak 2s and your auction starts anything other than Pass - 1♣, you should probably work on being neutral when you get presented with DD bidding problems. If you are from Western Europe, a 2m opening from South is perfectly ok. Some Northern Europeans might consider a 2♦ or 2♥ opening from North to show both majors.

This is one of the small number of hands that benefit greatly from one of the various GF gadgets. The most logical is the one Mike describes, using a 2NT rebid in TWalsh, but there are a few about. The problem is that basic US bidding systems just do not allow for holding a hand this strong with support and a singleton king. On this hand splintering does no harm but there are many combinations where such a splinter just causes more harm than good. In any case, without a gadget Mike's auction looks right up to 5♦. Should 6♣ now really be a singleton or should it be the ♣Q? I think the simpler way is for North to bid 5NT there, which gives space for South to make a 6♣ ask. North can now show a singleton (jump in trump suit if you play traditional RKCB):

P - 1♣ -- 1♠ - 3♥ -- 4♥ - 4NT -- 5♣ - 5♦ -- 5NT - 6♣ -- 7♠. Easy when you can see 26 cards and are told where to end up!

Well a 4-2 club break is pretty much all you need, that's pretty cold, stiff K will also do, if trumps are 2-1 you may not even need that.

[mikeh]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-06, 15:44, said:

It's a good problem. The difficulty for me is the big hand's second bid.

P-P-1C-P
1S-P-?

I don't like a splinter into a singleton honor card and 4S isn't right on this type hand IMO so I'm left with either 3D, which confuses the issue about spade support or 4C, which is good for spade support but overdoes the suit quality of the clubs. All in all, I like 4C the best.

After 4C, I think it proper for partner to bid 4H. At this point I can use keycard. I think over the response I can assume the spade Q because of the 4H cue, so I don't need to ask and can simply show all the controls with 5N. If partner follows that with 6C (no guarantee of that) I can bid 7S.

Of course, it's easier to get there knowing I should - seeing only one hand would be harder.

Since we’d splinter without the heart King, and consider we had a very good hand for that call, how can it be right to hide the extraordinarily strong spade support?

Btw, I don’t understand your proposed 3D. Surely that’s a splinter as well, and thus doubly misleading?

Maybe you meant a fake reverse into 2D. I’ve bid more than a few fake reverses, but never enroute to hiding primary trump support. No good player, sitting opposite, will ever imagine AKxx, let alone AKJx, in spades after the fake reverse.

The hand is far too strong for 4S. 4N is a complete guess that could easily lead to going down in 5S and otherwise means tossing a coin after any useful response.

The splinter is not ideal but it’s by far and away the call most likely to clue partner into the basic nature of our hand.

Consider how much we are telling him.

If, as most do, you have to bid 4H here (you may have seen that I can bid 3H as invitational plus)…

Now partner knows you have a gf raise opposite a passed hand 1S response. He also knows your probable shape within one card: you are either 4=1=3=5 or 4=1=2=6. I suppose you might be 4=0=4=5 or 4=0=3=6 but voids are far less common than singletons…again, note that I promise precisely one heart card…I think it very important, for slam bidding, to distinguish a void from a stiff if possible.

With Qxxxxx AJxx Qx x, it’s clear to move towards slam. Since partner could have AKJx x xx AKQxxx (unless you have the gadget with no name where 4C shows about this hand…which I do, lol), we would be violating an important metarule if we keycarded. But I can’t construct a hand on which 5S isn’t pretty safe so I might do it anyway. My main concern wouldn’t be being off the diamond AK but missing slam when he shows 3 keycards…what if he had AKxx x Kxx AKxxx? How can I tell that from AKxx x Jx AKQxxx? I can’t

So over 4H, I think we bid 5C, breaking another metarule by making our first cue in partner’s main suit. We need to hear 5D over which we bid 5H and leave the decision to partner…the fact that he will think we have something like Qxxxx Axx xxx Kx doesn’t worry me too much.

Note how much easier (although far from easy) it is if one can bid 3H over 1S. I guess you can tell that I play primarily imps, since with both regular partners we’ve spent a lot of time, in system design, in optimizing slam bidding😀

[smerriman]

Winstonm, on 2021-November-06, 16:35, said:

Yes, I would more likely splinter with a similar hand. The reason is that my belief is that splinter bids are designed to help partner evaluate his holdings. If I splinter in a singleton K partner will not evaluate correctly his QJ10x when he is expecting me to hold x or void.

I agree with the general belief.

But if you would splinter with AKJx x Ax AQxxxx, then it's somewhat illogical to avoid splintering with AKJx K Ax AQxxxx just because you now have a king instead of an x. Only if you have a much better way of showing that hand.

[Winstonm]

smerriman, on 2021-November-06, 18:01, said:

I agree with the general belief.

But if you would splinter with AKJx x Ax AQxxxx, then it's somewhat illogical to avoid splintering with AKJx K Ax AQxxxx just because you now have a king instead of an x. Only if you have a much better way of showing that hand.

I see and accept your point as reasonable but I have in my methods 4C to show good (not necessarily solid) clubs and a strong raise to 4M. Without that treatment I would have to splinter.