[LBengtsson]

I was kibbing a expert game (vugraph) today. Both e/w pairs missed 7♥ (7♣ makes either) how will you bid to the grand? is it easy? 3NT by one pair was very bad result. Here are the hands and bidding. 2/1 or American Standard.

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[AL78]

I'm not familiar with 2/1 so as a wild guess, and arguably being biased by seeing both hands:

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[sfi]

1D - 2C is an uncomfortable start to the auction, and it can be easy to miss 4-4 major fits without sensible agreements.

That being said, West on the first hand should really make a move to slam. 4C would elicit a cue bid, and then they should reach at least 6C. If 3NT on the second really does show a 4441 max, then I don't understand West's pessimism. 7H is pretty good opposite xxxx KQxx Axxx x, and East will have substantially more than that. My guess is either they were unsure of the system or did not have a good way to explore slam, so West just guessed.

As AL78 suggested, this hand is much easier if West chooses to show hearts on the second round - e.g., 1D - 2C; 2(whatever) - 3H. Now at least they both know the KQ of hearts are important cards. That's not obvious to do with a 7-4 and a suit that good though.

[chasetb]

Before I get to my analysis, I will say that 7♥ is near impossible to get to, because once you bid (and rebid) the Clubs, you aren't finding Hearts. Also, once you find out partner is 4441, you should estimate that your Club suit is only 67.8% likely to come in (3-2 break). Since partner has the 10, it ends up being 71.4%, but I don't expect partner to have the Ten or the Jack (which makes it 96%).

In the first auction, I am assuming they are using 2/1. West should splinter with 3♠ over 2NT, but this leaves East with a decision - bid 3NT with a singleton Club (and only Qxxx in the splintered suit), or bid on, hoping that you have a fit in Diamonds or a great Club suit?

The second auction looks like Precision, and there are two reasons why 6♣ was bid: (1)Laziness -> NO EXCUSE (2)System notes -> Read on

Many Precision pairs have the agreement that once one person has shown a 3-suited hand, that Mulberry (or 4♣/4♦/RKC) applies. If they have that agreement, then there's almost no way to Voidwood or cue for Clubs. However, in my Precision notes, I have this listed as an exception, since Responder in theory denied a 4-card Major. Therefore, 4♣ is a slam try for Clubs (by Opener, 4♦ is RKC whereas 4NT is a slow down), 4♦ is a slam try for Diamonds, and 4M is a self-splinter with a very nice Club suit. Yes, West will know that they have a Heart fit, but will (s)he be able to let partner in on the act?

[Cyberyeti]

Playing what I play which is not a 5M system or 2/1 GF but still opens 1♦ comes down to a choice of opener's rebid.

1♦-2♣(9/10+ ish)- now 2N is GF and if you don't stretch to that you have to rebid 2♦ so having seen the other hand skews the decision.

[HardVector]

1♦-2♣
2n-3♥
4♥-4♠
5♣(or 5♦depending upon style)-5♠

bidding 7 from here is a judgment call. I don't know why west would rebid clubs instead of showing the 4 card major.

[nige1]

LBengtsson 'I was kibbing a expert game (vugraph) today. Both e/w pairs missed 7♥ (7♣ makes either) how will you bid to the grand? is it easy? 3NT by one pair was very bad result. Here are the hands and bidding. 2/1 or American Standard.
+++++++++++++++++++
On the left is a (just) possible auction.
East underbid, slightly. Could he do better? Is 1N a more sensible opening for East?
Is West's 5♠ exclusion?
Is West worth it?

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[DavidKok]

Why 4♥ by East over 3♥? I would bid 4♦ in that position, confirming hearts and showing a control.

[AL78]

DavidKok, on 2021-January-11, 05:08, said:

Why 4♥ by East over 3♥? I would bid 4♦ in that position, confirming hearts and showing a control.

A valid point, East's hand is better than his bidding has implied. In that case West bids 5NT and East bids 7♥.

[nige1]

DavidKok, on 2021-January-11, 05:08, said:

Why 4♥ by East over 3♥? I would bid 4♦ in that position, confirming hearts and showing a control.

Good thinking

[Cyberyeti]

HardVector, on 2021-January-10, 23:59, said:

1♦-2♣
2n-3♥
4♥-4♠
5♣(or 5♦depending upon style)-5♠

bidding 7 from here is a judgment call. I don't know why west would rebid clubs instead of showing the 4 card major.

Because he has 7 clubs and 4 hearts rather than 4 and 4, plus a lot of the time, partner rebids 3♦ and then you can then bid 3♥.

[HardVector]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-January-11, 07:15, said:

Because he has 7 clubs and 4 hearts rather than 4 and 4, plus a lot of the time, partner rebids 3♦ and then you can then bid 3♥.

The long clubs can be shown by bidding 4c (or 5c with a weaker hand) if partner comes back with 3n. As has been demonstrated earlier, the auction gets sticky if you bid 3c and hear 3n. Bidding 3c will tend to bury a potential heart fit.

[mikeh]

I suspect that the E-W pairs had poor agreements about 1D 2C, which sequence is a theoretical quagmire in 2/1 (and, I suspect, most natural methods).

I have a method that, while definitely a minority view, works spectacularly well on hands like these, at the cost of making some other hands difficult to untangle. Since it is a minority view, I mention it only because it might prompt some readers to consider giving it a try. I would not expect most pairs, expert or otherwise to bid this way.

I like to play that after the 2C response, opener's 2D rebid is a mere 'noise'. It simply denies the ability to do something more descriptive.

2M would show 4 cards with a 5+ diamond suit and at least slight extra values. 2N would promise a balanced hand with at least 2 clubs and both some semblance of stoppers in the majors. 3C would promise at least 5-4 minors. 3M would be a splinter in support of clubs, but doesn't promise or deny significant extras, and 3N is a balanced 18-19 (if playing 15-17 NT, which I don't do in my regular partnerships..where it would be 17-19)

Thus our auction:

1D 2C
2D 2H
3H ?

Here, what one does depends on methods. I think one could justify using exclusion if available (for me, 4N since 4S is kickback, but if 4N were keycard, then 4S should be exclusion...one should not splinter beyond game)

Once partner owns to the diamond Ace, I'd ask for the Queen and partner would own to that card and the diamond King, over which one would need to be an incredible pessimist to stay out of 7H.

Ok, that's my pet treatment, which I've played with good success for many years.

Back to the real world.

I am convinced that rebidding 2N should ALWAYS deny a stiff or void anywhere. So here, I'd bid 2H rather than 2N, and once again this leads very readily to 7H if exclusion is available.

Ok, what about playing poor methods where, in a constructive gf auction, one decides that one should pretend to a balanced hand when one doesn't have one...maybe one wants to be declarer...which is a common but unfortunate approach of a lot of advancing players.

1D 2C 2N

Wtf was 3N all about? Why can't partner hold, say, Qxx KQx AJ10xx Jx? 3N down 1 or 2 on a hook for 7C?

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a 4-4 heart fit will sometimes be better than a 7-2 club fit, let alone a 7-1 club fit. Plus, even at imps, it makes no sense to aim for 1370 (or 1390) when 1430 or 1460 is available. One can always get back to clubs or notrump later.

So 1D 2C
2N 3H

3H shows 4+ hearts and 5+ clubs. What is wrong with at least trying to describe the hand?

If opener has, say, KQ10x Qxx AKxx xx, he has an easy 3N

But with the actual hand, he has a trivial 4H and once again exclusion (if available) makes it easy. However, one has to jump to 5S over 4H to be exclusion, and that is a little uncomfortable...one could easily be off 2 red losers, tho they might have to lead diamonds to beat you.

Good players take time in auctions: I have no idea why supposedly 'good' players would fail to show hearts in any sensible auction, whether as opener or responder.