Is this a psyche or cheating?
#1
Posted 2020-September-28, 10:38
Her opponents bid up to a slam, and on the way her LHO bid 3♠, which was alerted as 0-1 spades. I'm not sure whether or not her RHO had bid spades naturally in the auction, it is possible. Her partner on lead holding the spade ace decided on the basis of this description not to lead it. It turned out that the person who bid 3♠ and alerted it held two losing spades, and a spade lead was necessary for the defence to take two spade tricks before the losers were thrown on diamonds. She seems to believe this was deliberate mis-information and therefore cheating, whereas I am inclined to believe it was a psyche aimed to divert the killing lead. What are your thoughts?
The director was called at the time and questioned the opponents. The one who made the 3♠ bid claimed he got his spades and clubs mixed up, e.g. he/she was looking at the club void and clicked on the wrong black suit. The result was allowed to stand.
She asked one or two senior players at the club (who are very experienced directors) who sided with her saying it was out of order, and there seems to be a view that psyches should be illegal.
#2
Posted 2020-September-28, 10:55
The person who bid 3♠ is one of the most senior TDs in the world. If he is cheating we are in serious trouble. Fortunately, looking at their other boards I see no signs of cheating.
#3
Posted 2020-September-28, 10:58
Let's start with the most obvious. The two senior players in your club are idiots, they don't understand the laws of the game, and you really shouldn't ask their opinions on these sorts of issues.
Next: A misbid is neither a psych or cheating. You have a completely different set of rules at play here. So, if you / the director genuinely believe that a misbid occurred / the player in question made a mistake, its case closed. With this said and done, lying about a misbid and pretending that this is what happened when in fact you did make a lead inhibiting psych is a grave offense.
Next: Lets assume that this was actually a lead inhibiting psych. This is completely legal so long as there isn't some kind of concealed partnership agreement at play. Many strong players practice these sorts of psychs. Some very strong players (for example Zia) do so repeatedly.
#4
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:16
glen, on 2020-September-28, 10:55, said:
The person who bid 3♠ is one of the most senior TDs in the world. If he is cheating we are in serious trouble. Fortunately, looking at their other boards I see no signs of cheating.
How did you find the hand and identify the players so quickly? I wasn't even playing.
#5
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:21
AL78, on 2020-September-28, 11:16, said:
I was one of the players (responder). Certainly my partner said that when he bid 3S he thought spades was his short suit and that is what the 3S bid means for us.
But let's also clear up another point that the original poster made, which is that if my partner had deliberately departed from our agreements (psyched) then as long as I had no more reason to suspect this than the opponents, which was the case, this is entirely legitimate.
London UK
#6
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:22
hrothgar, on 2020-September-28, 10:58, said:
Let's start with the most obvious. The two senior players in your club are idiots, they don't understandd the laws of the game, and you really shouldn't ask their opinions on these sorts of issues.
Next: A misbid is neither a psych or cheating. You have a completely different set of rules at play here. So, if you / the director genuinely believe that a misbid occurred / the player in question made a mistake, its case closed. With this said and done, lying about a misbid and pretending that this is what happened when in fact you did make a lead inhibiting psych is a grave offense.
Next: Lets assume that this was actually a lead inhibiting psych. This is completely legal so long as there isn't some kind of concealed partnership agreement at play. Many strong players practice these sorts of psychs. Some very strong players (for example Zia) do so repeatedly.
I don't think the senior players are idiots, they just have a strong moral view on psyching (e.g. just because you can, doesn't mean you should).
You are otherwise voicing my thoughts, it was a psyche aimed at deflecting a potentially damaging lead and so allowed by the rules.
My friend just sounded rather bitter about it, which is understandable (if wrong) as she has been the victim of cheating in the past.
#7
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:26
glen, on 2020-September-28, 10:55, said:
Actually I think you have us the wrong way around.
London UK
#8
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:30
gordontd, on 2020-September-28, 11:21, said:
But let's also clear up another point that the original poster made, which is that if my partner had deliberately departed from our agreements (psyched) then as long as I had no more reason to suspect this than the opponents, which was the case, this is entirely legitimate.
I agree, unfortunately trying to convince someone their strong assertion is wrong is often futile.
I apologise if my original post caused offence. I didn't agree with my friend, but wanted to double check here.
#9
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:30
AL78, on 2020-September-28, 11:22, said:
You are otherwise voicing my thoughts, it was a psyche aimed at deflecting a potentially damaging lead and so allowed by the rules.
My friend just sounded rather bitter about it, which is understandable (if wrong) as she has been the victim of cheating in the past.
I have absolutely no use for people who get asked questions about the rules of the game and start substituting their own personal aesthetics.
You friend needs to learn to get over this.
In particular, they need to understand that their belief that some other pair has cheated them in the past is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
#10
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:36
gordontd, on 2020-September-28, 11:26, said:
You are correct
#11
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:39
AL78, on 2020-September-28, 11:16, said:
#12
Posted 2020-September-28, 11:46
AL78, on 2020-September-28, 11:30, said:
No, it didn't cause offence. I would much rather have the question raised here, where I can answer it, than have people going around talking about it in ways that I can't respond to.
London UK
#14
Posted 2020-September-28, 14:24
If a policeman breaks the law, then who can you trust?
An innocent mistake is fine, but these ought to be logged and tracked so that, for his own good, and the good of the game everyone can sleep well at night - or in my case the day - being on the other side of the world...
#15
Posted 2020-September-28, 14:59
pilowsky, on 2020-September-28, 14:24, said:
Nobody broke the law.
London UK
#16
Posted 2020-September-28, 16:00
gordontd, on 2020-September-28, 14:59, said:
That's what I said Gordon. It's the principle of Caesar's wife. Nobody is accusing you of wrongdoing.
#17
Posted 2020-September-28, 16:54
AL78, on 2020-September-28, 10:38, said:
Seems to me this view is wrong-headed, and in any case irrelevant, since psyches are not illegal.
This case demonstrates one problem with the online custom of explaining the meanings of your own calls. There may be others. Here, the assumption by the player that her opponent was cheating is perhaps understandable, she having been a victim in the past, but there is really no basis for it.
BTW, if he had bid 3!S on purpose, that would have been a psych, and he still would have and should have explained the agreement correctly that it was a splinter. What he said though was that he mis-clicked. That's a mis-bid, not a psych. Still requires the same explanation — splinter — of their actual agreement.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#18
Posted 2020-September-29, 01:15
pilowsky, on 2020-September-28, 16:00, said:
I don't think it is what you said, which is why I made the point.
London UK
#19
Posted 2020-September-29, 01:19
blackshoe, on 2020-September-28, 16:54, said:
Since she thought that this situation indicated cheating, we have no way of knowing if she really had been a victim of it in the past. Perhaps it had been another misbid or a psyche. Since she has asked the opinion of those who seem to think that psyching is tantamount to cheating, she might well have gained the wrong impression about her previous experience.
London UK
#20
Posted 2020-September-29, 02:28
gordontd, on 2020-September-29, 01:15, said:
You seem to be going out of your way to deliberately misunderstand me. What exact point are you trying to make Gordon?
What I said was that Tournament Directors are I the position of Caesar's wife this is a well-known legal principle. I specifically said that you were not chaeting.
If you are unfamiliar with the expression, it means "
- (proverb) Those in positions of authority should avoid even the implication of impropriety."
Do not persist in trying to call me out in this way it is childish. How do you know what other people 'think'? Is this something that you seriously believe yourself capable of?
I don't know about the other people in this thread but I am not accusing you of anything.