[Cyberyeti]

Hand 1: Game all, teams.

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The 3♥ bidder is pretty random if it matters

Hand 2: Game all, teams

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These two hands were part of a set of 20 where the dealing machine had clearly been fed some acid, we had an 80%+ grand that failed (you could also play it in another suit (72%) which also failed to break, or NT which required one of the two), a small slam that went off because a side suit was 6-1 and various other 5-0 breaks.

[pescetom]

I would pass #1. #2 is tricky, I wouldn't double with those spades but at MP might stretch to 1nt (and probably regret it later).

[Tramticket]

1. I assume that North only had a take-out double available? You have to protect with this shape and take it on the chin when North shows up with XXX XXXX XXX XXX.
2. I wouldn't bother at IMPs. I might bid 1NT at MPs - but pretty marginal.

[FelicityR]

Bad hands shouldn't re-open vulnerable, especially at teams. Both hands are quite mediocre. In both scenarios probably the best judge of where the hidden high card points lie is East.

In #1 East could have passed 3♥ with an opening hand. In #2 if you protect with 1NT (10-14 - that's how I play it) the ♥K is technically a potential useless card if partner retreats to a suit contract, so it's worse than a 10 count.

Pass on both won't get you into trouble with your partner or teammates.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-06, 04:42, said:

1. I assume that North only had a take-out double available? You have to protect with this shape and take it on the chin when North shows up with XXX XXXX XXX XXX.
2. I wouldn't bother at IMPs. I might bid 1NT at MPs - but pretty marginal.

1: yes, no penalty double available

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-January-06, 06:28, said:

1: yes, no penalty double available

Looking again, I am passing #1 as well - I mis-counted my hand as a 16-count first time!

[eagles123]

1 - X
2 - pass

[apollo1201]

I’m a pretty aggressive re opener but the red color does not excite me.

On 1 make my HQ the SQ and it is quite obvious, or lower W bid to 2 and I’d do it as well but here it is a bit tough.

On 2 it is an unexciting 10 count w/o S, and we probably are not missing something. Or if we did have a narrow with all working well dbl dummy 3NT, we’ll probably be collecting several hundreds as a small compensation (or a gain vs +150).

[apollo1201]

I’m a pretty aggressive re opener but the red color does not excite me.

On 1 make my HQ the SQ and it is quite obvious, or lower W bid to 2 and I’d do it as well but here it is a bit tough.

On 2 it is an unexciting 10 count w/o S, and we probably are not missing something. Or if we did have a narrow with all working well dbl dummy 3NT, we’ll probably be collecting several hundreds as a small compensation (or a gain vs +150).

[ahydra]

I'd pass both.

ahydra

[msjennifer]

Sir.I would PASS both for obvious reasons.Our balancing 1NT is 11-14 with gadgets available.tto responder to find out range 11-12 or 13-14 and the distribution too.Make S holding Qxx and we do balance.The hand NO';1 is a very borderline TOD.We shall not, .Replace the HQ elsewhere and we shall.THANKS.

[bilalz]

#1 is too hard, I keep changing my opinion. Too many factors: the spade spots look nice, my opening bid has already indicated a good lead, must protect my shape, the juicy penalty can go either ways... So I suspect it would end up a table feel/state of match decision on most days.
One more thing, many of us would find it easier to pass this away from the table and with the benefit of a lot of thinking time to consider the implications on the score, so maybe pass is the superior option, not that I am likely to find it at the table.

#2 is a pass for me at these colors unless I feel I really need a game swing.

[Cyberyeti]

#1 all depends on partner whether you should double.

His hand is Jx, A?xx, 9x, KJ10xx, do you pass or bid 4♣ ? and where is the threshold for the ? that changes a bid to a pass if there is one (the ? is a 10 or less).

#2 bidding is bad news. You rescue opener from playing 1♥-1 with Jxxxx opposite a void, he now bids his ♦AKJxx and catches his partner's xxxx, we made 4♦x and we weren't the only pair to do that.

[Tramticket]

bilalz, on 2020-January-07, 03:07, said:

#2 is a pass for me at these colors unless I feel I really need a game swing.

What game swing??? Your side is not bidding and making game - if partner has (say) 15+ they would have found a bid. The only possible game swing is when you balance and find the opponent's suddenly come to life.

bilalz, on 2020-January-07, 03:07, said:

#1 is too hard, I keep changing my opinion.

I did too - mainly because I can't count. But there is a lot of potential downside here and little chance of a good penalty or game our way. It is likely that partner will have three or four hearts, given that East hasn't raised, so you might hope for a penalty - but partner's hearts are likely to be weak since there was no 3NT bid. The ♥Q is a negative feature since it makes it less likely that partner is lying in wait with honours (e.g. AQTX) over the pre-empt. Partner will have stretched to bid or double with spades.

[bilalz]

Tramticket, on 2020-January-07, 04:17, said:

What game swing??? Your side is not bidding and making game - if partner has (say) 15+ they would have found a bid. The only possible game swing is when you balance and find the opponent's suddenly come to life.

maybe I should phrase it better but many might have understood what I meant. I meant the very unlikely 3nt on (12)13-14 balanced with p. And would only do it where I knew a top score on the board was needed. I think it is clear from my post that my overwhelming choice would be pass as the situation described is not very common but does happen once in a while.

[miamijd]

I pass both and say WTP?

On #1, you don't have a game; partner would have found some sort of bid with 13+ (your hand is really only worth about 11). So what is the best chance to go plus? Pass and hope to beat 3H.

On #2, you very likely don't have game, either. The best hand partner could have is 14 with some hearts, which might possibly make 3NT, but that is the only upside to bidding. If partner doesn't have that hand (and chances are very great that he doesn't), you'll do far better to pass.

Cheers,
Mike

[Cyberyeti]

miamijd, on 2020-January-07, 10:37, said:

I pass both and say WTP?

On #1, you don't have a game; partner would have found some sort of bid with 13+ (your hand is really only worth about 11). So what is the best chance to go plus? Pass and hope to beat 3H.

On #2, you very likely don't have game, either. The best hand partner could have is 14 with some hearts, which might possibly make 3NT, but that is the only upside to bidding. If partner doesn't have that hand (and chances are very great that he doesn't), you'll do far better to pass.

Cheers,
Mike

I absolutely agree on #2 although 13 will probably be enough with pretty much all the cards known in one hand.

#1 you can easily be throwing away 7 or 8 by passing, Jx, J10xx, J9, AJ10xx may well make 3N or take 200-500 off 3♥ and partner can be a fair bit better than that, add ♠Q for example. On the actual hand (Jx, A543, 9x, KJ10xx) 4♣ and 3♥ both make.

[cherdano]

I agree very much with Mike. One additional point on #1 is that our shape isn't actually as great as it looks for a reopening double - partner will expect 5+diamonds, and with 3334 unsuitable for pass or 3N he may bid 4D.

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2020-January-07, 13:31, said:

I agree very much with Mike. One additional point on #1 is that our shape isn't actually as great as it looks for a reopening double - partner will expect 5+diamonds, and with 3334 unsuitable for pass or 3N he may bid 4D.

With us, 24 in the reds (43) in the blacks and a 15 count is quite common

[mikeh]

Late here, but:

Pass on 1. If we had 800 (or more!) coming, too bad. That heart Q is a negative value. Unless LHO is completely random (and if so, we will usually win this match, if it is long enough), he has some texture in his suit, which means that partner is very unlikely to be salivating over there...if we had, say, AJxx x KQxx QJxx, same hcp, but now double, although not my choice, has a greater chance of hitting a home run.

On 2: classic 1N at mps, and an ok 1N at imps, white, when if we play a partial down 2 or 3 undoubled we may break even. At imps, game is a long way off, and we could easily lose significant imps no matter what partner has, unless he has a huge hand, and we can make the game he bids.

Note that at mps, partner will not push to what he thinks is a thin game, so while 1N is hardly risk-free, partner won't hang me. At imps, red, he should be pushing for game, and so may well hang me.

So colour me chicken on both hands.