[thepossum]

Hi all

I've gradually (based on reading and more learning, and based on an apocryphal bit of philosophy from Zia) increased the frequency of opening 1 NT hands with semi balanced (15-17) hands including sometimes with 5-card majors, and sometimes with an upgraded 14 or downgraded 18, similarly with 2NT (upgrade or downgrade by a point occasionally). I must admit I dont really have any feel for which hands with a 5 card major (or minor) are best opened 1NT or 1m or 1M and tend to use a bit of feel on the shape and stops. However I've also learned not to care too much about having stops in all 4 suits which used to lead me to prefer suit openings. Note this discussion is for 5-card major systems. I think about things differently playing Acol with weak NT.

So what are the considerations.

I know the usually valid shapes for 1 NT are 4333 5422(???? two doubletons dodgy and should never be bid?) 5332 4432, in any order. I hardly ever open with singletons although have occasionally started doing it with an Ace singleton (and maybe a King but doubtful)

But is it usually regarded as acceptable and safe practice to open any of those shapes irrespective of distribution of HCPs or are there pointers towards when you should open a suit.

What are the pros and cons. I know 1NT is good for hiding lead options from defence, gives a point count, is preemptive, no trumps may score better at MPs, a no trump game may often be easier (1/2 fewer tricks) but are there any downsides such as the risk of missing a good 5-3 or 5-4 fit. I know they usually will make many tricks in NT too but there is the risk of a bad 2-2 fit in one of the suits.

How do the percentages work out. Does it matter between IMPs and MPs

regards P

Note Just now I opened one (5332, 5cm) with a worthless heart doubleton and unfortunately partner had a doubleton and no stop, and had an unlucky lead, down 3, they cashed 7 defensive tricks. Didnt score too badly in the IMPs game I was in since the alternative was opps getting a minor part score but ...... its still a big swing in a team game.However having just kibitzed a team game they dont always seem to care about wild swings sometimes

[helene_t]

Hi Possum,
For this discussion it doesn't matter if you play 4cM or 5cM, but strong or weak nt makes a huge difference.

Playing strong nt, with 15-17 points your main concern is that if you don't open 1nt, you have to find a way to show your values without getting too high. So you either have to reverse or bit thrice with 5422, and jump rebid with 6322. Now 1nt with 5M422 or 6M322 goes too far unless your values are extremely soft, but otherwise it is best to open 1nt. With 5422 and 17 points or a very good 16 your hand may have too much strength for 1nt and you'll be happy to bid thrice or reverse. But with 15 or a modest 16, always open 1nt with 5m422 even if you don't have an immediate rebid problem.

[thepossum]

Thanks Helene

[hrothgar]

"It Depends"

People are preferring NT openings on more and more hands in order to avoid an awkward rebid later in the auction.

Rather than looking at particular features of the hand (do I have a 5 card major, do I have stoppers in the short suit) you might do better to consider questions like the following

"If partner makes an advance of foo, what will my rebid be and will I be happy with the result?"

In some cases partnership have systematized these tendencies, choosing to use rebids that would have shown balanced shapes for other purposes.

[Tramticket]

 thepossum, on 2019-March-28, 22:11, said:

I think about things differently playing Acol with weak NT.

There are many differences (often quite subtle) between a strong no trump and a weak no trump. Take, for example, a semi-balanced hand with a doubleton in each major:

Considerations playing a strong NT

This hand type has been discussed a couple of times recently (here and here). The consensus was that you should often open this hand type 1NT. I am in no position to disagree, since I have only rarely tried to play a strong NT. But the idea being put forward is that if you open your longest suit (clubs), you are too strong to rebid 1NT (12-14) or 2♣ (should also have a six-card suit) but you are not strong enough to reverse into 2♦. So opening 1NT is not perfect - but it is a better choice than either 1♣ or 1♦.

As I say, it isn't my system, but the argument seems pretty persuasive.

Considerations playing a weak NT

Now put yourself in my world, playing a weak NT. If you hold this shape and 15+ points you can simply open 1♣ and rebid 1NT (or 2NT if a bit stronger). You have shown your five-card club suit and your (semi-)balanced shape - a good description of your hand.

But what if you hold 2245 in a 12-14 HCP hand? Would you now open 1NT? I don't think that there is a need. You can open 1♣ and simply rebid 2♣ over a 1M response. This shows a minimum hand and you won't miss anything since partner will bid again with the kind of values needed to make game likely. You are probably in a reasonable contract and won't even have missed a diamond contract (Acol players usually respond four-card suits up the line).

Meanwhile, there is a positive advantage to knowing that partner will have at least three cards in at least one major. You pick up ♠J943 ♥10875 ♦8 ♣8742 and hear partner open 1NT (weak) followed by a pass on your right. You know that you are massively out-gunned and I am not hanging around and waiting to be double. I bid 2♣ (Stayman) and hope to scramble to a playable spot in a major, knowing that there is no possibility of playing in a six-card fit!

[billyjef]

"I've gradually (based on reading and more learning, and based on an apocryphal bit of philosophy from Zia) increased the frequency of opening 1 NT hands with semi balanced (15-17) hands including sometimes with 5-card majors, and sometimes with an upgraded 14 or downgraded 18, similarly with 2NT (upgrade or downgrade by a point occasionally)". -Fabulous!-

"I must admit I dont really have any feel for which hands with a 5 card major (or minor) are best opened 1NT or 1m or 1M and tend to use a bit of feel on the shape and stops." -Less about the cards and more about your rebid.-

"However I've also learned not to care too much about having stops in all 4 suits which used to lead me to prefer suit openings." -Excellent.-
"I know the usually valid shapes for 1 NT are 4333 5422(???? two doubletons dodgy and should never be bid?)" - There are very few commandments in bridge (nevers/always). With 5422 it is more about risk/reward and follow up auction. Shrug off the exceptions if their wasn't a better option. -
"I hardly ever open with singletons although have occasionally started doing it with an Ace singleton (and maybe a King but doubtful)" -Excellent but some experts prefer a singleton king to a singleton ace...lengthy but informative discussion here .-
"But is it usually regarded as acceptable and safe practice to open any of those shapes irrespective of distribution of HCPs or are there pointers towards when you should open a suit." -If I can bid strongly and naturally (2nd bid), I tend to show my suits. If my second bid would have to bid a short suit (3 cards or less) I have a tendency to open 1nt, but other factors may influence me...i.e. if all my points are in the 5 and 3 card suit. I will tend to open 1NT if my second bid has to be a doubleton...the important hand here is usually a 4=5=2=2 hand if I can't manage a reverse into spades. This isn't inclusive, only because it is feel guided by experience, judgement and foresight.-
"What are the pros and cons. I know 1NT is good for hiding lead options from defence, gives a point count, is preemptive, no trumps may score better at MPs, a no trump game may often be easier (1/2 fewer tricks) but are there any downsides such as the risk of missing a good 5-3 or 5-4 fit. I know they usually will make many tricks in NT too but there is the risk of a bad 2-2 fit in one of the suits." -You got the pros, the rewards, and you have a grasp of the cons, risks. You have a grasp of Offensive vs Defensive points to consider all this leads to discernment that can be applied in the situation...make your best choice, if it doesn't work, determine if you missed something in that particular situation, if not, feel good that you made the best long term decision. I don't worry about missing the 5-3's but ocassionally get a bad board because partner didn't have enough to bid over 1NT and 2 of the major would have scored better. Missing 5-4's are more upsetting but what are the odds in the situation? Hasn't happened often in my memory where we have such a fit in a major and partner can't bid. I don't know the odds though.-
"How do the percentages work out. Does it matter between IMPs and MPs". -It feels like they are in favor of opening the strong notrump but I don't have any statistics. I will say I've notice lately, it seems the odds aren't as favorable as they used to seem to be...all subjective...but that is helping me hone my discernment and judgement. I feel the pro's tend to favor opening 1nt at IMPs as well, for all the same rebid reasons and the defensive reasons. But there is of course more reason to prefer a suit occasionally than nt...close calls.-
Like declaring, try to envision the what ifs of possible actions by others at the table, including your partner, for each hand and imagine how you will act for each of those potential situations. This, more than trying to map out specifics will develop useful evaluation skills. Not that mapping out isn't useful and helpful, it is, if it is used as a tool to explore evaluation skills rather than rules etched in stone.
Personally, like many, I keep an eye on the path through the forest than get hung up on any specific tree. By this I mean that I've learned that trying to worry about every bad thing that can happen, the exceptions, can be counterproductive if I lose site of the value of acceptable risk for a greater reward. I try to focus on what wins in the long run and has the most potential to bring that about; which means being able to stomach the bad results . Learning to shrug off losses is more helpful and skillful when you know your action was the right thing to do in the moment to achieve long term success.
Even that mentality can be fanaticized as well. It is important to understand each situation uniquely and act accordingly (even potential pitfalls, if it can be done stoically)...this takes playing a lot, as you are doing, learning, asking, making mistakes, which you are also doing and all that grows into judgement and discernment which it appears to be your goal.
In the long run, I find opening 1NT frequently tends to be a winning tactic and with experience, I've learned not to abuse that tactic .

[thepossum]

thx all

It definitely takes a fair bit of feel and judgement to know when to go for NT versus a suit game/part score. esepcially considering MP/IMP/Vulnerability and many other things

has anyone ever studied how effective it is as an opening strategy. As always almost everything seems to be based on anecdote and historic/expert views

[etha]

I opened 1nt on every single hand except one (funny story about that) at a local club and got 65%.


Funny story. last table I had opened 1nt on every hand I cld up to this point. The opponents average age was 93 I think. So I decided this was perhaps a bit unfair so I passed with my balanced 16 count. Partner opened so I bid 3nt which made +2 for atop when everyone else was in 6NT -1.

[etha]

No idea how you are going to test your plan. You could get hold of a relatively non insane robot e.g. Jack. Now you can try opening all balanced and semi balanced hands in range 1NT and compare with opening only 4333 4432 23(53) in range I guess. Not sure this would prove anything meaningful though.

[thepossum]

Its not really a plan Etha. I was asking a serious question about NT bids with 5 card majors

[Vampyr]

 thepossum, on 2019-March-31, 03:45, said:

Its not really a plan Etha. I was asking a serious question about NT bids with 5 card majors

You can use 3♣ as 5-card Stayman, so you will find 5-3 fits on gamegoing hands.

[helene_t]

 thepossum, on 2019-March-30, 03:03, said:

thx all

It definitely takes a fair bit of feel and judgement to know when to go for NT versus a suit game/part score. Especially considering MP/IMP/Vulnerability and many other things

has anyone ever studied how effective it is as an opening strategy. As always almost everything seems to be based on anecdote and historic/expert views

You may be able to find some research on Richard Pavlicek's homepage. I can't find it anymore, maybe it has been removed or maybe someone else has better googling skills than I have. Anyway, his research shows that in real life bridge, with 5332 it works best to open 1NT with hearts but 1♠ with spades. This doesn't take into account the effect which the choice would have on other hands: obviously one of the reasons for opening 1NT with 5M332 is that partner can trust your second suit not to be a 3-card suit, and this is not factored in. Also, if you get a reputation for opening 1NT with a 5-card major, opps may be less likely to lead a major against your notrump game, and this would then help you whenever you don't have a fivecard major.

As for response strategies, there one was an article in the Bridge World which showed that when responder has game values and a 4333, 5332 or 6322 pattern, it is better to play notrumps if you have an 8-card fit, and with 5332 opposite 4333, 3NT is best even with a 9-card fit. This was based on simulations - I don't remember if it was based on DD or SD sims, or DD play with SD lead.

[PrecisionL]

Another consideration: NT defenses are highly evolved and opponents sometimes find contracts over 1NT that they could not / would not find over a suit opening. Just saying ...