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Hello,
I suppose this is a recurring topic. Can someone remind me of what the 'standard' treatment is ?
Partner opens 1♦, (his) LHO overcalls 1♠, I bid a negative double (♥), RHO raises to 2♠ over which opener and LHO pass. (Opener suggests he has a minimum 12 - 14 HCP hand, without 3 cards in ♥ if we're playing support doubles).
I have :
Hand A : ♠ 6 ♥ AK52 ♦ QJ1053 ♣ J85
Hand B : ♠ 6 ♥ AJ52 ♦ QJ1053 ♣ J85
With both hands it comes to mind to bid 3♦. With hand A to suggest that if partner has a ♠ stopper there must be some play in 3NT. With hand B just to compete : with 9 ♦ our side I'm not going to let them play a comfortable 2♠ contract.
What can responder bid to let opener know what his intentions are ?
Thanks.
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Raising partner's Minor after a negative double Sound/invitational vs. merely competitive
#2
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Posted 2018-December-16, 11:01
What is your basic system and how many diamonds are promised by the opening 1D?
Competing looks normal with either hand, unless 1D is likely to be a particularly short suit. I would double again, to show genuine values.
Competing looks normal with either hand, unless 1D is likely to be a particularly short suit. I would double again, to show genuine values.
#3
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Posted 2018-December-16, 11:23
You can Force to game, Just compete or Invite game but often you only have room to do 2 of those. Sometimes a general values showing double is not appropriate as in your examples.
On 1 you can invite with 4♦ giving up on 3nt, maybe more attractive at imps and if you cue 3♠ I suppose you could pass if opener bids 4♦ but are stuck in 3nt or forced to game if they bid anything else. That's by agreement in that when we can't handle all 3 of the approaches above, Invites is what we choose to lose and most common in my neck of the woods.
The competitive option of 3♦ is most frequent and most important as it can be a pretty scrappy hand trying to bump them up.
On 1 you can invite with 4♦ giving up on 3nt, maybe more attractive at imps and if you cue 3♠ I suppose you could pass if opener bids 4♦ but are stuck in 3nt or forced to game if they bid anything else. That's by agreement in that when we can't handle all 3 of the approaches above, Invites is what we choose to lose and most common in my neck of the woods.
The competitive option of 3♦ is most frequent and most important as it can be a pretty scrappy hand trying to bump them up.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
What is baby oil made of?
#4
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Posted 2018-December-16, 12:04
Do you have any agreement what 2N means, it's not by any means stupid to play it as artificial here to distinguish the diamond hands.
#5
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Posted 2018-December-16, 16:39
AlphaKappa, on 2018-December-16, 10:40, said:
Partner opens 1♦, (his) LHO overcalls 1♠, I bid a negative double (♥), RHO raises to 2♠ over which opener and LHO pass. (Opener suggests he has a minimum 12 - 14 HCP hand, without 3 cards in ♥ if we're playing support doubles).
The "standard" method of playing support doubles is that you only play them if the overcall is 2♥ or lower (or after a 2♠ cuebid by RHO after partner has responded 1♠). One obvious reason is that you don't want to end up at the 3 level on a 4-3 fit with minimal values.
#6 Guest_AlphaKappa_*
Posted 2018-December-17, 05:33
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions (and thanks also for the correction that a support double is not available in the given situation).
In case this may be of interest to anyone, what is going to end up in my system notes is something along the following lines:
In a situation of the type
1-of-a-Minor — (1♥ or 1♠) — 1♠ or double — (2♥ or 2♠)
pass — (pass)
(Opener 1-of-a-Minor, 1♥ or 1♠ overcall by LHO, a 1-level response (or a negative double) by partner, a subsequent raise of the overcall by RHO, followed by 2 passes)
- the raise of the Minor to the *forced* level 3 is a purely competitive action guaranteeing the possession of 8+ trumps (and, most probably, a canapé distribution)
- a new Minor at (the forced) level 3 (3♣ if the opening Minor was Diamonds, 3♦ if it was ♣) is similarly purely competitive with a loooooong canapé (6+ cards in the Minor)
- invitational-or-better responder hands with those distributions must ‘double’. Over what, with a sure stopper in the opponents’ suit Opener is invited to bid 2NT (12 - 13 HCP) or 3NT (14+ HCP). Without a stopper, opener rebids 3♣, whether Clubs was or not his original Minor (conventional, does not mean the possession of a Clubs suit)
In the examples in the original message, responder would bid 3♦ with hand B and double with hand A.
Other examples :
1♦ — (1♥) — 1♠ — (2♥)
p — (p) — 3♦ / 3♣ purely competitive
1♦ — (1♥) — 1♠ — (2♥)
p — (p) — X invitational +
1♦ — (1♥) — 1♠ — (2♥)
p — (p) — X — (p) X = invitational +
2NT/3NT/3♣ 12 -13 ♥ stopper/ 14+ ♥ stopper / no ♥ stopper
1C — (1♠) — X — (2♠)
p — (p) — 3♣ / 3♦ purely competitive (canapé)
1C — (1♠) — X — (2♠)
p — (p) — X invitational +
1C — (1♠) — X — (2♠)
p — (p) — X — (p) X = invitational +
2NT/3NT/3♣ 12 -13 ♠ stopper/ 14+ ♠ stopper / no ♠ stopper
Final note : in case you play 2NT Good/Bad (and you have defined 2NT by responder as Good / Bad in the described situation), the logic must be reversed. Responder bids 2NT, forcing 3C by opener and then passes or bids 3D purely competitive. A direct support of opener's Minor at the 3 level, even if this is a "forced" level, is forcing.
In case this may be of interest to anyone, what is going to end up in my system notes is something along the following lines:
In a situation of the type
1-of-a-Minor — (1♥ or 1♠) — 1♠ or double — (2♥ or 2♠)
pass — (pass)
(Opener 1-of-a-Minor, 1♥ or 1♠ overcall by LHO, a 1-level response (or a negative double) by partner, a subsequent raise of the overcall by RHO, followed by 2 passes)
- the raise of the Minor to the *forced* level 3 is a purely competitive action guaranteeing the possession of 8+ trumps (and, most probably, a canapé distribution)
- a new Minor at (the forced) level 3 (3♣ if the opening Minor was Diamonds, 3♦ if it was ♣) is similarly purely competitive with a loooooong canapé (6+ cards in the Minor)
- invitational-or-better responder hands with those distributions must ‘double’. Over what, with a sure stopper in the opponents’ suit Opener is invited to bid 2NT (12 - 13 HCP) or 3NT (14+ HCP). Without a stopper, opener rebids 3♣, whether Clubs was or not his original Minor (conventional, does not mean the possession of a Clubs suit)
In the examples in the original message, responder would bid 3♦ with hand B and double with hand A.
Other examples :
1♦ — (1♥) — 1♠ — (2♥)
p — (p) — 3♦ / 3♣ purely competitive
1♦ — (1♥) — 1♠ — (2♥)
p — (p) — X invitational +
1♦ — (1♥) — 1♠ — (2♥)
p — (p) — X — (p) X = invitational +
2NT/3NT/3♣ 12 -13 ♥ stopper/ 14+ ♥ stopper / no ♥ stopper
1C — (1♠) — X — (2♠)
p — (p) — 3♣ / 3♦ purely competitive (canapé)
1C — (1♠) — X — (2♠)
p — (p) — X invitational +
1C — (1♠) — X — (2♠)
p — (p) — X — (p) X = invitational +
2NT/3NT/3♣ 12 -13 ♠ stopper/ 14+ ♠ stopper / no ♠ stopper
Final note : in case you play 2NT Good/Bad (and you have defined 2NT by responder as Good / Bad in the described situation), the logic must be reversed. Responder bids 2NT, forcing 3C by opener and then passes or bids 3D purely competitive. A direct support of opener's Minor at the 3 level, even if this is a "forced" level, is forcing.
#7
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Posted 2018-December-17, 16:45
First, in the auction you provide, a X of 2S is not a support X, because you don't want to be at the 3-level on a 4-3 fit. Generally it shows a very good (at least 16+) hand, short(ish) spades, and no clear call. Often you will have 3 hearts, but not always. The following are good examples:
xx
Qxx
AKxx
AKQx
x
Qxx
AKxxx
AKxx
Second, after the opponents bid and raise a suit, the "standard" way to distinguish a competitive hand from an invite hand is by using good/bad 2NT.
Cheers,
mike
xx
Qxx
AKxx
AKQx
x
Qxx
AKxxx
AKxx
Second, after the opponents bid and raise a suit, the "standard" way to distinguish a competitive hand from an invite hand is by using good/bad 2NT.
Cheers,
mike
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