[VixTD]

These hands came up in a recent county match in England, and in a discussion afterwards someone asked how they should be bid in a five-card major system (West dealer):

---

Assume EW are playing five-card majors and a 15-17 NT. I know there are different agreements for minor-suit openings. What are the common ways of handling this West hand?

If they open their longer minor (1♦) they have no rebid over 2♣ if 2NT shows 12-14.

They could agree to open 1♣ so that they can jump to 2NT over 1♠ to show 18-19 points (a 1NT rebid showing 12-14).

They could agree that the specific sequence 1♦ - 2♣; 2NT shows 18-19, even if 1M - 2♣; 2NT shows 12-14.

(I'm just hoping there's no support for some of the suggestions that have been voiced: for 1♦ - 2♣; 2♥, or an opening bid of 2NT.)

Sorry if this is basic bidding theory to you, but we were brought up on Acol here.

[RMB1]

You can open 1♣ and rebid 2NT.
You can even open 1♣ if ♣7 was a spade.
You can agree that 1♦-2♣ is GF and 2NT rebid is 12-14 or 18-19.
You can play 2♥ rebid as a natural reverse or other strong hands (including 18-19 bal), with 2♠ by responder to ask.
You can play 1♦-2♣ -2♦ as any weak rebid, -2♥ as 15+ natural (could be 4441), -2NT as 18-19.

[SteveMoe]

Playing 2/1 I'd expect an auction similar to this:
1♦ - 2♣GF
2♥ - 3♣
3♠(punt) - 3N (I've got ♠ stopped]
4♣Minorwood - 4N(2 Keys with Q)
6♣/NT

[wank]

SteveMoe, on 2017-February-23, 16:09, said:

Playing 2/1 I'd expect an auction similar to this:
1♦ - 2♣GF
2♥ - 3♣
3♠(punt) - 3N (I've got ♠ stopped]
4♣Minorwood - 4N(2 Keys with Q)
6♣/NT

playing 2/1 or indeed any non-absurd system without special agreement, you rebid 2NT with this and partner can search for a heart fit. 2H shows an unbalanced hand with clubs and hearts (irrespective of how you play 1m-1x-1M.

yes it's sensible enough to play 1D-2C-2D just shows 5+ diamonds, but it's far from standard.

[FrancesHinden]

The normal 'natural' way to fix this auction playing 5-card majors, strong NT but not playing 2/1 is to agree that 1D-2C promises at least the values for 2NT (i.e promises a rebid). Opener then rebids 2D on all minimum hands, whether or not they have 5 diamonds and rebids 2NT with 18-19 balanced.

Alternatively, play 1D-2C as game forcing (and 1D-3C as invitational) and a 2NT rebid is 12-14 or 18-19

Alternatively, open 1C on all strong balanced hands.

[GrahamJson]

Even playing 5CM the west hand is surely a 1H opener. The bidding no can then proceed along the lines 1H-2C-2D-2NT-3C... after which you should reach 6C. East migh prefer 2S to 2NT, or 3NT, depending whether 2C is GF or not.

[msjennifer]

That's the tragedy of playing five card majors! Traditional Acol or Precision will bid the slam in a whiff.A suit of Qxxxx where

there is only one winner is considered a treasure and a suit AKQJ with 4 winners and which can play well with xx opposite is thought unfit to open just because an x is not there.!We do open 1H on such a hand unashamedly when an easy rebid of 2 diamonds over 2 C is there.!

[VixTD]

Thanks everyone for very useful replies.

[ahydra]

msjennifer, on 2017-February-24, 05:24, said:

That's the tragedy of playing five card majors! Traditional Acol or Precision will bid the slam in a whiff.A suit of Qxxxx where there is only one winner is considered a treasure and a suit AKQJ with 4 winners and which can play well with xx opposite is thought unfit to open just because an x is not there.!We do open 1H on such a hand unashamedly when an easy rebid of 2 diamonds over 2 C is there.!

I'd say it's more a tragedy of playing a strong NT. With 5cM and a weak NT you can bid 1D-2C; 2NT (15-19, GF), with checkback / transfers / something similar in order to find any 4-4 major fit. But with a strong NT you either have to use an artificial 2D as some have said above, jump to 3NT with 18-19 BAL, or hack other bits of your system around to cope.

Better yet, I think, is short club with transfer Walsh responses (opening 1C on all balanced hands). I play this method with a weak NT and it works very well. Others do the same with a strong NT - Robson/Allfrey are a notable example. (With a strong NT, the key here is good use of the 1C-1R*; 1M completion of transfer: e.g. complete with all weak NTs with 3 cards, 1NT shows exactly 2 cards, and 2NT shows 18-19 balanced, sometimes with another bid like 3D to show 18-19 BAL with 4c support)

In ACOL, if you opened 1H and rebid 2D with this you have misdescribed your hand . The correct rebid is 2NT (or 3NT if you play more stone-age stuff); rebidding a new suit should promise an unbalanced hand.

ahydra

[fromageGB]

Not a 5cM or NT strength tragedy at all, just a tragedy of not agreeing what your methods are.

Playing "balanced club" style where 1C can be doubleton never leads to problems AFAIK. Playing transfers you again need agreements, and one of your options appears to be that, with "jump to 2NT over 1♠".

[msjennifer]

ahydra, on 2017-February-24, 08:14, said:

I'd say it's more a tragedy of playing a strong NT. With 5cM and a weak NT you can bid 1D-2C; 2NT (15-19, GF), with checkback / transfers / something similar in order to find any 4-4 major fit. But with a strong NT you either have to use an artificial 2D as some have said above, jump to 3NT with 18-19 BAL, or hack other bits of your system around to cope.

Better yet, I think, is short club with transfer Walsh responses (opening 1C on all balanced hands). I play this method with a weak NT and it works very well. Others do the same with a strong NT - Robson/Allfrey are a notable example. (With a strong NT, the key here is good use of the 1C-1R*; 1M completion of transfer: e.g. complete with all weak NTs with 3 cards, 1NT shows exactly 2 cards, and 2NT shows 18-19 balanced, sometimes with another bid like 3D to show 18-19 BAL with 4c support)

In ACOL, if you opened 1H and rebid 2D with this you have misdescribed your hand . The correct rebid is 2NT (or 3NT if you play more stone-age stuff); rebidding a new suit should promise an unbalanced hand.

ahydra

And if 2NT is raised to 3NT one will be extremely lucky not to get a spade lead and opponents cashing first five tricks .A bid of 2D allows partner to bid NT if he has say Kxx in spades.The NT contract will be played from the right hand.If one opens 1C on this hand it will not be easy for partner to describe his given hand.And then none of openers rebids can describe this hand.We temporise the bidding by opening 1H and rebidding 2D as 2C is AT LEAST a one round if not game force.One of my real expert friend opened 1H and over 2C rebid 3D ( I do not agree with him ) when given this hand,.remarking " I have no spade guard and do not want to create a wrong impression of having one by bidding NT. " By the way,I prefer playing Precision or Blue Club and confess not to be an advocate of a standard system with five card majors and strong NT.

[SteveMoe]

wank, on 2017-February-23, 16:29, said:

playing 2/1 or indeed any non-absurd system without special agreement, you rebid 2NT with this and partner can search for a heart fit. 2H shows an unbalanced hand with clubs and hearts (irrespective of how you play 1m-1x-1M.

yes it's sensible enough to play 1D-2C-2D just shows 5+ diamonds, but it's far from standard.

With a weak doubleton ♠ playing 2♣ as GF means we can rebid 2N when strength is evenly distributed in a balanced hand, and 2M when weak in the other. Yes, suggesting an unbalanced hand is one way, so is a NT stopper search and ♥ fit. NOTE: By analogy, this discussion is similar to whether the default rebid for opener after 1M-2m is 2N or 2M. Some prefer 2N for all balanced hands while others want 2N to mean values in the unbids.

[Kungsgeten]

I agree with ahydra that its a question of playing strong/weak NT, and not about 4/5 card majors. Its also a question about what 2♣ show, is it forcing for one round or game forcing? Some possible rebids, depending on system below.

- Four card majors, strong NT, 2/1 GF: 1♥-2♣; 2NT (12-14 or 18-19). Other four card major variants very similar to the ones below.
- Five card majors, three card minors, 2/1 GF: 1♦-2♣; 2NT (12-14 or 18-19)
- Five card majors, three card minors, 2/1 INV+ promising a rebid: 1♦-2♣; 2NT (12-14 or 18-19)
- Five card majors, three card minors, 2/1 INV+ not promising a rebid: 1♦-2♣; 3NT (18-19)
- Five card majors, three card minors, 2/1 INV+ promising a rebid with waiting 2♦ gadget (see Frances' post): 1♦-2♣; 2NT (18-19)
- Five card majors, short club and unbalanced 1♦ opening, inverted minors (INV+ forcing to 3♣): 1♣-2♣; Probably artificial rebid
- Five card majors, short club and unbalanced 1♦ opening, transfer responses: 1♣-1NT (GF clubs or balanced); 2♦ (12-14 NT or 18-19 NT)-2♥ (ask); 2NT (18-19)
- Mexican 2♦: 2♦ (18-19 NT)
- 18-19 NT included in 2♣: 2♣ (18-19 NT or any GF)-2♦ (waiting, GF if holding a 5+ suit); 2NT (18-19)
- 18-19 NT included in 2♣, with transfer responses: 2♣-2NT; 3♣ (18-19 NT)

[helene_t]

beginners will be taught to rebid 3nt after the 2c response as in acol.