[awm]

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Playing normal 2/1 agreements (no negative free bids) several questions come to mind:

1. Should I have made a negative double at my first turn, even though this is supposed to show both minors?
2. An immediate 3m jump would have been fit-showing. Presumably this means 3m now shows less than an invite with 6+ in the minor?
3. What are double and 2NT at my second turn? Both what would you assume, and how do you prefer to play are interesting. Would you bid one of them here at MP scoring?

[xavierf]

In my opinion dbl is take-out At my partnership 2NT would be real, but maybe that's too old-fashioned
3m now looks for me like an invite with good m suit.

In MP i will make a double and pass on everything partner answers.

[paulg]

• Although I now wish that I'd doubled initially, with three small spades I'm more likely to take the low road and pass.
• I think 3m now shows a long minor with less than competitive values. As I play transfers over the overcall, for me it would mean significantly less!
• I think double shows a penalty pass and is to play and 2NT is competitive, mainly for the minors. There are many 31(54) hands that might not double but now wish to compete. However I can imagine passing again at the table.

[Zelandakh]

xavierf, on 2017-February-08, 00:27, said:

In my opinion dbl is take-out At my partnership 2NT would be real, but maybe that's too old-fashioned

Double real and 2NT takeout would seem to be a better combination and arguably should pretty much be the default for an experienced partnership (for some loose interpretation of takeout anyway). 3m cannot be an invite as that hand would have bid over 1♠; therefore it shows a weaker hand.

On the initial double, this is an auction where I have long believed that using a double to show both minors is misplaced. Both transfers (double shows clubs or (semi-)balanced without spade stop) and support (for 5 card majors that means a doubleton ♥ and no other convenient call) seem more flexible. In both cases we could have considered doubling on the previous round without misdescribing our hand. That said, we have spade length so if the opps are lawful our partner has shortage but did not take any action. That suggests that we are probably not missing too much. A typical hand for partner is probably a minimum 2533, with a reasonable expectation that each side can take around 8 tricks in their black suit. If we do get to 3♣, good opps will MP double whenever they think 2♠ was making, so the chances of trading an average for a bottom are fairly high. So to bid at these colours we basically have to be confident that we are taking 9 tricks and that is a little way off.

[jallerton]

awm, on 2017-February-07, 19:30, said:

---

Playing normal 2/1 agreements (no negative free bids) several questions come to mind:

1. Should I have made a negative double at my first turn, even though this is supposed to show both minors?
2. An immediate 3m jump would have been fit-showing. Presumably this means 3m now shows less than an invite with 6+ in the minor?
3. What are double and 2NT at my second turn? Both what would you assume, and how do you prefer to play are interesting. Would you bid one of them here at MP scoring?

1. Double and correct a 2♦ rebid to 2♥. The 109 in partner's long suit are likely to fill a hole and the top cards in the minors are likely to be of use in a heart contract.
2. Yes, 3m is natural and competitive, too weak to act on the previous round.
3. 2NT is for take-out, typically with 2 places to play. Double depends on the partnership's rule for doubles. I normally play it as penalties, albeit that it rarely comes up against non-psyching opponents. At least we keep them honest!

[jallerton]

Double post - deleted.

This post has been edited by jallerton: 2017-February-09, 18:05

[mike777]

interesting thread to see how good players such as Adam and other posters handled this at MP. I would have passed and passed but I see most posters call this losing bridge

[rhm]

awm, on 2017-February-07, 19:30, said:

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Playing normal 2/1 agreements (no negative free bids) several questions come to mind:

1. Should I have made a negative double at my first turn, even though this is supposed to show both minors?

Double is a poor choice, because there are 3 flaws:
You are weak and you are balanced.
Your distribution is not perfect
You are red.

However, I believe that if opener balances with 1NT after 2 passes this should show a weak notrump (not 18-19) with reaonable stoppers in overcallers suit.
This agreement relieves responder of finding a bid with an unsuitable distribution. He is almost never broke in this situation when advancer also passes.
It is rarely a good idea to pass out at the one level with a balanced hand and raesonable stoppers in overcallers suit.

Quote

2. An immediate 3m jump would have been fit-showing. Presumably this means 3m now shows less than an invite with 6+ in the minor?

No, it shows a willingness to compete, not an invite. I do play negative free bids at the two level, but negative free bids, though limited and not forcing, show a good suit in a constructive hand. So this hand is unsuitable for a negative free bid in my opinion.
But even without this I rather bid immediately with an invitational hand.

Quote

3. What are double and 2NT at my second turn? Both what would you assume, and how do you prefer to play are interesting. Would you bid one of them here at MP scoring?

Double shows a willingness to compete, with no clear preferences. DBL looks right to me. I pass with a trump stack.
2NT: minors.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

What Jeffrey said.

[rhm]

Zelandakh, on 2017-February-08, 04:54, said:

A typical hand for partner is probably a minimum 2533, with a reasonable expectation that each side can take around 8 tricks in their black suit.

I do not see why.
Opener would need substantial extras to double or bid again red at the 3 level uninvited.
I see no good basis for your remark.
Also good opps will raise here on the slightest excuse, particularly at favorable vulnerability.
I have seen this done on yarboroughs. It would not surprise me if our side has much more HCP strength than opps here.

Quote

If we do get to 3♣, good opps will MP double whenever they think 2♠ was making, so the chances of trading an average for a bottom are fairly high. So to bid at these colours we basically have to be confident that we are taking 9 tricks and that is a little way off.

Good opps are not omniscient.
If I would get doubled every time I go down I would have given up tournament play long ago.
In my experience this is a scenario where opps rarely double you unless you riun into a trump stack.

The reasons are simple:
Your side has opened the bidding, which is almost always an advantage.
Both the overcall as the raise are wide ranging. So opps, whether good or bad, do not know where the balance of strength is.

Far more often will we push them to 3♠ or make something ourselves.

Rainer Herrmann

[helene_t]

gnasher, on 2017-February-10, 06:55, said:

What Jeffrey said.

ditto. but as Zel and Paul I prefer to play transfers.

[jallerton]

rhm, on 2017-February-10, 05:20, said:

Double is a poor choice, because there are 3 flaws:
You are weak and you are balanced.
Your distribution is not perfect
You are red.

However, I believe that if opener balances with 1NT after 2 passes this should show a weak notrump (not 18-19) with reaonable stoppers in overcallers suit.
This agreement relieves responder of finding a bid with an unsuitable distribution. He is almost never broke in this situation when advancer also passes.
It is rarely a good idea to pass out at the one level with a balanced hand and raesonable stoppers in overcallers suit.


No, it shows a willingness to compete, not an invite. I do play negative free bids at the two level, but negative free bids, though limited and not forcing, show a good suit in a constructive hand. So this hand is unsuitable for a negative free bid in my opinion.
But even without this I rather bid immediately with an invitational hand.


Double shows a willingness to compete, with no clear preferences. DBL looks right to me. I pass with a trump stack.
2NT: minors.

Rainer Herrmann

Playing against you, good opponents will soon learn to pass 1♠ overcalls at this vulnerability on good hands. Missing an NV game will be a good investment when you protect with 1NT on a weak NT and an 800 or 1100 penalty is taken. With weak misfit hands, if they sense you have a trump stack they can apparently avoid being doubled by raising to 2♠ [not risk free of course - partner might bid on].

[rhm]

jallerton, on 2017-February-10, 12:04, said:

Playing against you, good opponents will soon learn to pass 1♠ overcalls at this vulnerability on good hands. Missing an NV game will be a good investment when you protect with 1NT on a weak NT and an 800 or 1100 penalty is taken. With weak misfit hands, if they sense you have a trump stack they can apparently avoid being doubled by raising to 2♠ [not risk free of course - partner might bid on].

I have heard this a few times.
Similar statements have been made against weak notrump openings and mini notrumps as well when they got popular.
Now some experts have given up penalty doubles altogether against them.
I play this now for a long time and can not remember having been caught.
For this to happen the right conditions must be present:
You must be at favorable vulnerability, opener must have a weak notrump with a suitable holding in overcallers suit, responder (who has much better information) must be broke and nowhere to run.
I believe the danger is greatly exaggerated.
Trap passing is difficult and was never very successful and is often quite expensive, and opener can see the the colors too.
And if your trap passes may conceal a strong hand you are obliged to alert it. It will be expensive if opener decides to pass.
All not so simple.

Rainer Herrmann

[awm]

The suggestion that 2nt is minors seems strange to me -- double of 1S was minors. What hand can I have with both minors that bids now?

Perhaps 2nt now should be specifically 2-5 in hearts and a minor? This can help us in some auctions with the idea being opener bids 3-card minors up the line.

One issue with an initial negative double is the auction 1h-(1s)-dbl-(2s)-3d where it's unclear whether to bid or pass or whether we have a real fit. I'd like a chance to get to 3c if partner is 1543 at least...

At the table I tried 3c (unsure how pd would take double or 2nt) and opponents took the push to 3s down one. We were making 3c; partner had xx AJxxxx Jx AJT.

[rmnka447]

awm, on 2017-February-07, 19:30, said:

1. Should I have made a negative double at my first turn, even though this is supposed to show both minors?
2. An immediate 3m jump would have been fit-showing. Presumably this means 3m now shows less than an invite with 6+ in the minor?
3. What are double and 2NT at my second turn? Both what would you assume, and how do you prefer to play are interesting. Would you bid one of them here at MP scoring?

1. If you don't play negative free bids, then a direct 2 level bid should show a good 11 HCP or more AND a 5+ card suit. A negative would be unlimited if no 5 card suit held, or, if you have a long suit, it's a little less than enough to make a direct forcing 2 level bid, say around 8-10 HCP (plus a bad 11?). So if you double and then bid a new suit, you show that long suit hand. With a long suit and less, you simply pass and, hope to bid you suit the next time round if possible. So with the actual auction, IMO, pass is the right call during the first round.

2. Exactly, it's competitive, not invitational, and should a decent 6+ suit normally. But it can be subject to partnership agreement how good a suit you should have.

3. 2 NT should be a willingness to compete with 2 places to play, here pick a minor -- something like xxx - Q10xxx K10xxx. Double is also willingness to compete but implies some tolerance for partner's suit.

So with the actual hand given, I think your choices are between pass and 3 ♣.

I'd probably pass being vulnerable, but it's pay your money take your choice.

[rmnka447]

awm, on 2017-February-10, 12:38, said:

The suggestion that 2nt is minors seems strange to me -- double of 1S was minors. What hand can I have with both minors that bids now?

Perhaps 2nt now should be specifically 2-5 in hearts and a minor? This can help us in some auctions with the idea being opener bids 3-card minors up the line.

One issue with an initial negative double is the auction 1h-(1s)-dbl-(2s)-3d where it's unclear whether to bid or pass or whether we have a real fit. I'd like a chance to get to 3c if partner is 1543 at least...

At the table I tried 3c (unsure how pd would take double or 2nt) and opponents took the push to 3s down one. We were making 3c; partner had xx AJxxxx Jx AJT.

3 ♠ down 1 may be a good matchpoint result as it beats everyone who lets them play 2 ♠. Part of good matchpoint bidding is learning to compete hard for part scores. That means not only getting to spots that make, but also pushing the opponents 1 level higher and beating them. It's more art than science -- you get a feel when and how to compete. If you're always bidding one more and going down, you're probably overbidding. But if you're letting the opponents settle in part score contracts that make, you're probably not competing enough. The trick is to find the right balance between the two. If you do and can play decent defense, you'll start having some really good matchpoint games.

[rhm]

awm, on 2017-February-10, 12:38, said:

The suggestion that 2nt is minors seems strange to me -- double of 1S was minors. What hand can I have with both minors that bids now?

The agreement I like to have is that 2NT in competition shows 2 places to play and (takeout or balancing) DBL would show that all three might be playable.
Therefore I suggested minors but the inference would be that the hand was too weak for a negative DBL.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

deleted

[jallerton]

awm, on 2017-February-10, 12:38, said:

The suggestion that 2nt is minors seems strange to me -- double of 1S was minors. What hand can I have with both minors that bids now?

Perhaps 2nt now should be specifically 2-5 in hearts and a minor? This can help us in some auctions with the idea being opener bids 3-card minors up the line.

One issue with an initial negative double is the auction 1h-(1s)-dbl-(2s)-3d where it's unclear whether to bid or pass or whether we have a real fit. I'd like a chance to get to 3c if partner is 1543 at least...

At the table I tried 3c (unsure how pd would take double or 2nt) and opponents took the push to 3s down one. We were making 3c; partner had xx AJxxxx Jx AJT.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that the delayed 2NT is 2 places to play. This could be a hand with both minors if too weak to double on the first round - a genuine protective effort; Opener won't be acting on a lot of hands over 2♠ here.