[billw55]

 PassedOut, on 2016-September-19, 14:04, said:

Let me say up front that I don't consider false statements to be "lies" unless the person knows the statements are false.

In that case Trump may be lying much less often than you think.

[Vampyr]

 PassedOut, on 2016-September-19, 08:19, said:

Speaking for myself, I haven't seen any of Hillary's "corruption." Not sure if I've seen any of her lies, but might have. Trump, on the other hand, very many of both lies and corruption...

So far as I can see, the NYT is as neutral as you can actually find.

I think that Hilary's good points, for example her commitment to public service ever since law school, outweigh her faults by a long way. But I don't think it can be denied that the NYT is an extremely politically liberal newspaper.

[PassedOut]

 billw55, on 2016-September-19, 15:02, said:

 PassedOut, on 2016-September-19, 14:04, said:

Let me say up front that I don't consider false statements to be "lies" unless the person knows the statements are false.

In that case Trump may be lying much less often than you think.

Probably. Because Trump says whatever comes into his head, he might contradict himself a few hours later without realizing it.

But some of his business lies are well-documented, such as the videos he made saying that he personally chose the instructors at Trump University. And some of his lies are prepared, not off-the-cuff remarks: for example Trump's assertion that Hillary Clinton started the birther hoax and his statements that he had always opposed the invasion of Iraq.

TRUMP: A TRUE STORY

Quote

It was a mid-December morning in 2007 — the start of an interrogation unlike anything else in the public record of Trump’s life.

Trump had brought it on himself. He had sued a reporter, accusing him of being reckless and dishonest in a book that raised questions about Trump’s net worth. The reporter’s attorneys turned the tables and brought Trump in for a deposition.

For two straight days, they asked Trump question after question that touched on the same theme: Trump’s honesty.

The lawyers confronted the mogul with his past statements — and with his company’s internal documents, which often showed those statements had been incorrect or invented. The lawyers were relentless. Trump, the bigger-than-life mogul, was vulnerable — cornered, out-prepared and under oath.

Thirty times, they caught him.

Trump had misstated sales at his condo buildings. Inflated the price of membership at one of his golf clubs. Overstated the depth of his past debts and the number of his employees.

That deposition — 170 transcribed pages — offers extraordinary insights into Trump’s relationship with the truth. Trump’s falsehoods were unstrategic — needless, highly specific, easy to disprove. When caught, Trump sometimes blamed others for the error or explained that the untrue thing really was true, in his mind, because he saw the situation more positively than others did.

“Have you ever lied in public statements about your properties?” the lawyer asked.

“I try and be truthful,” Trump said. “I’m no different from a politician running for office. You always want to put the best foot forward.”

[kenrexford]

Yes. It is a man woman thing. Could you please? If the objection is to Hillary it must be a woman thing. If the objection is to Obama it must be a black thing. Trying to figure out why I think Ted Cruz was a nightmare. I must hate Christians. I think I must hate Jeb Bush because I hate Southerners.

Look. I consider myself fair because not only do I see Hillary Clinton as a corrupt liar but I see Donald Trump as a pompous Showman who also lies. I also see both candidates as really really bad. Depressing even.

But I'm not voting on who I like best. I'm voting on my best hope for Big Picture progress. I feel like I'm talking ideas. This entire thread has been a microcosm of typical politics. We started out with an interesting discussion at least to me of globalism terrorism economics and the like. Out of apparent frustration with that the conversation has broken down into seeing who tells the most lies what type of lies that they tell who covers those lies what lies they tell when covering those lies and now getting into racism sexism and the like.

Ultimately truth be told I could care less about either one of their nonsense bluster or corruption. I merely find it funny the people with an ugly spouse like to point out how ugly other people's spouses are. I'd rather have the one who's freaky in bed then the one who sleeps with other guys.

[kenrexford]

Oh and that was a metaphor not a slam on Cruz's wife.

[kenberg]

Hey, I got an idea. Winston titled this thread

The Totally Useless, Non-Scientific BBO Opinion Poll for Current Events


I have an idea for a poll.

Poll Q1:
Is there anyone who has not made up his/her mind yet about Trump Versus Clinton?


Poll Q2:
What on Earth are you waiting for? A Burning Bush? (As in Biblical, not as in Jeb)

[PassedOut]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-19, 18:19, said:

Yes. It is a man woman thing. Could you please? If the objection is to Hillary it must be a woman thing.

Heh heh. Thought I'd troll you back, since I see that's what you are up to. Gotcha!


No doubt lawyers like to practice arguing seemingly impossible positions, and this thread was one-sided before you jumped in. I've been pretty sure that you've been trolling since you started using known hoaxes to buttress your points. But the clincher was when you used a book that you knew to be full of false statements to support the point that Hillary is a corrupt liar.

Fun while it lasted though!

[billw55]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-19, 18:19, said:

Look. I consider myself fair because not only do I see Hillary Clinton as a corrupt liar but I see Donald Trump as a pompous Showman who also lies. I also see both candidates as really really bad. Depressing even.

I agree on this much. But I don't accept the "least of two evils" dilemma the major parties have presented. I refuse to vote for either.

I admit I do think Clinton is the lesser evil. How one can think Trump is preferable baffles me. But I do believe that as a nation, we thrive on varying points of view. I try to see the other side. It's really hard with Trump.

And then the R voters. After 8 years of a D white house, and with the widely unliked Clinton as the presumed candidate, this election was really theirs for the taking. But instead ... this. No sympathy at all.

[kenrexford]

A curious observation from today. The conventional wisdom against Trump on Banning people from some areas or some philosophies from entering the country is that he is catching too many fish with too big of a net. He supposedly uses a big net for racist reasons. Hillary's Theory is there a smaller and smaller net to have a more precise Target. Maybe it is Isis but perhaps even just the specific leader of Isis.

It seems contradictory however with statements that come out anytime there is an attack. Now the actors are lone wolves. Acting not as a part of a group but as a person motivated by their own internal demons.

If the head of the spider does not control the legs then why are we going after the head of the spider? Why are we allowing the legs to come freely at us?

Using that logic we should probably actually ban all of the legs and ignore the head because the head is doing no harm.

The only real explanation comes through psychology. The idea must be that the head actually controls the legs what is not part of the legs. If we cut off the head then the legs will thrash about for a little while but then run out of energy.

But on that theory we should take out the head. Instead we are trying to talk the legs into ignoring the head.

[PassedOut]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-20, 17:50, said:

The only real explanation comes through psychology. The idea must be that the head actually controls the legs what is not part of the legs. If we cut off the head then the legs will thrash about for a little while but then run out of energy.

But on that theory we should take out the head. Instead we are trying to talk the legs into ignoring the head.

Yes. With all the drones, surveillance technology, and targeting capabilities available to the US, it's truly baffling that Obama has not thought of that.

[cherdano]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-19, 11:54, said:

My sources of information are plentiful. CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, ABC/CBS/NBC, Politico, Real Clear Politics (and various sources therein like NYT, Washington Post, etc.), Drudge, Breitbart. I try to read/watch both "sides" of debates. Best source is BBF super geniuses, of course.

If you think this is a balanced media diet presenting you "both sides", then that's part of the problem. I mean you may think that MSNBC balances out Fox News, but there is no equivalent to Joe Scarborough on Fox News, and Rachel Maddow is a lot more, ahem, "fact-based" then the opinionated Fox hosts.
Similarly, there is no equivalent to Drudge and Breitbart in your sources, and I am not even sure it exists. You could add slate or talkingpointsmemo, but while they are both openly biased, neither of them have the shameless disregard for facts, or incendiary framing of many Drudge or Breitbart stories.

By the way, does it bother you at all that Trump used a quarter million of dollars from his "charity" to settle personal legal disputes? https://www.washingt...1dc7_story.html

[Winstonm]

 PassedOut, on 2016-September-21, 05:32, said:

Yes. With all the drones, surveillance technology, and targeting capabilities available to the US, it's truly baffling that Obama has not thought of that.

Seeing that Obama only got his law degree from Harvard, his missing this shouldn't be a surprise.

[y66]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-19, 18:19, said:

Look. I consider myself fair because not only do I see Hillary Clinton as a corrupt liar but I see Donald Trump as a pompous Showman who also lies. I also see both candidates as really really bad. Depressing even.

But I'm not voting on who I like best. I'm voting on my best hope for Big Picture progress. I feel like I'm talking ideas.

Just because your ideas are often provocative and interesting does not mean the depth and breadth of their insanity is knowable.

[mike777]

As far as current events, yet another man of color has been shot and killed by the police here in Charlotte. The local community has reacted in anger to all of these men being killed by police. I note my wife has been stuck in her downtown(uptown) parking garage for 5 hours waiting for assistance to arrive from a tow truck which has been slowed by the anger. Still waiting as of this post.

I note we lost power, tv, etc here at home for a while for some unknown reason but that stuff seems to be coming back online.

[mike777]

update efforts to reach her have failed. They were nine minutes away per reports but had to turn back. Not sure what is happening now.

--------


update2...some good news....2 more tow trucks are said we hope to be on the way( but 2 hours away). Also it is a large parking garage and she is now with not one but 2 security guards...

She can hear the sirens and helicopters but that is all at this point.

-------------------


True story but you will not believe it.

Good news the tow truck showed up, it showed up at my home, not where my wife and her car is which is in uptown Charlotte...miles away... After 5 hours the tow truck showed up at the wrong place.

Per local news 60 police injured tonight and one more person killed.
---------------------

update3 the tow truck driver who came to the wrong address, my home said he would go uptown and pickup my wife and car.....now my wife just called with the news....they cannot make it.....sigh.

----


good news yet another tow truck driver on the way....bad news....he did not make it for some confusing reason.

[mike777]

fwiw I just got an "emergency phone call" where my wife is an executive, from Bank of America at midnight.


The government shooting and killing people of color effects us all in many ways.


I suppose the stats may just say only two people were killed...no big deal, not thousands or millions affected....only two.


this is the third riot I have been in. Chicago, LA, Charlotte.

[Zelandakh]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-19, 18:19, said:

I'd rather have the one who's freaky in bed then the one who sleeps with other guys.

Why? Do you believe that being homosexual makes a person somehow mentally or morally inferior in some way? And what about transgender people - do you consider their choice freaky or some form of homosexuality?

[helene_t]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-20, 17:50, said:

If the head of the spider does not control the legs then why are we going after the head of the spider? Why are we allowing the legs to come freely at us?

I don't know if anyone would be silly enough to make such a generalising statement about whether terrorists work alone, in small groups or as part of large organisations. In any case, I suppose everybody would agree that we should go after both top and the bottom of the terrorist hierarchy as well as after individual, un-organised terrorists.

The issue is just that the fact that someone is Muslim/black/male/Italian/Romani/someotheridentitythatisrumourdedtobestatisticallyassociatedwithcrime doesn't give us the rights to treat that person as a criminal. Whether he is assumed to be the spider's head or leg is moot since we shouldn't assume either. It is as simple as that. As a criminal defence lawyer I think you are familiar with that concept.

As for the practical impact of restricting Muslims travelling to the US, I am sure you are familiar with the statistics comparing the number of Americans killed by Muslim terrorists to the number killed by lawn-mowers, toddlers etc.

Look, here in Europe we have serious problems with certain immigrant populations because of our lack of ability to integrate immigrants into our society and maybe also for other reasons. Someone whose grandparents moved from Afghanistan to Denmark is still considered an Afghan. Someone who immigrated from Afghanistan to USA last year is considered an American. I suspect that is one of the major reasons why, economically, Europe sucks while America is great. Now I am sure that USA is a pathetic country in many ways but with respect to immigration it is a great country. So when it comes to immigration, maybe you should consider the slogan "Keep America Great".

[kenrexford]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-September-22, 02:27, said:

Why? Do you believe that being homosexual makes a person somehow mentally or morally inferior in some way? And what about transgender people - do you consider their choice freaky or some form of homosexuality?

Um, "freaky in bed" means kinky, a great lover who is experimental. Not homosexual.

[Zelandakh]

 kenrexford, on 2016-September-22, 18:43, said:

Um, "freaky in bed" means kinky, a great lover who is experimental. Not homosexual.

I understand that Ken. And "the one who sleeps with other guys" sounds like a reference to homosexual men. If that is not the case then please explain yourself.