[Dinarius]

♠ J,10,9,7
♥ A,K,8,7,2
♦A,9
♣ K,9

Playing 12-14 NT and 4 card Majors, the bidding goes:

Partner You
♦1 ♥1
♣ 2 ?

Fourth suit isn't forcing.

Thanks.

D.

[Zelandakh]

 Dinarius, on 2016-August-18, 01:09, said:

Fourth suit isn't forcing.

Then you need to tell us how your system works because everyone here plays it as forcing. Would you really bid 2♠ here with ♠JTxx ♥Kxxxx ♦xx ♣Kx for example? Even in the days before the 4th suit forcing convention, 2♠ was played as forcing on this auction. If that really is your system then you have made the conscious choice to guess - I will guess 3NT. Even if this guess were correct on this hand, that would not make the system sensible.

[ahydra]

The new definition of "reverses": Diamond One, Heart One, etc.

Sorry but you simply have to have a forcing bid available here, given that responder has an unlimited hand. If you don't like 4SF, it's OK-ish to play 2S as natural*, but it still has to be forcing.

* it still gives you problem hands such as xxx AKxxx Kx KQx

ahydra

[billw55]

Of course 2♠ must be forcing whether conventional or not.

If I accept the conditions of the problem? With the bidding so far slam seems unlikely - no apparent fit, opener is limited to ~17 and usually has less. So I just punt 3NT. If partner has three hearts and 6♥ is making (or 3NT is down while 4♥ makes), then you will learn why 4th suit forcing exists.

[Cyberyeti]

What's 3♠ in this rather odd system which is clearly not Acol - even if not playing 4SF, 2♠ is nat F.

[Vampyr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-August-18, 08:00, said:

What's 3♠ in this rather odd system which is clearly not Acol - even if not playing 4SF, 2♠ is nat F.

The general rule is that a new suit by responder is always forcing. The exception is when opener rebids 1NT. Then you have to jump (or, for some, reverse) to force, unless you have some checkback mechanism.

In the old days I don't think the 1♠ bid was really defined as artificial or natural, but it was forcing and bidding it was called "temporising".

[The_Badger]

Hello Dinarius,

Who says 4th suit isn't forcing? You or your partner?

Your partner? Gradually educate them into the joys of FSF If they refuse, find another partner.

You? Then you will realise from this one hand alone - hopefully - what a valuable tool it is to have in your bidding armoury.

It's standard these days to play FSF as game forcing. Once upon a time, in the long, lost past, it was only forcing for one round.

It crops up time and time again, especially with Acol and SAYC, less so with 2/1 I imagine. And it does make hands like this easier to bid and evaluate.

[rmnka447]

A lot depends on your bidding agreements.

But "4th suit forcing" normally refers to what might be better be called 4th suit artificial and forcing -- meaning that the fourth suit bid says nothing about that suit just that it forces for one round or to game depending on the partnership agreement. If, as you say, you don't play "4th suit forcing", then bidding the 4th suit should be a natural bid. Whether it's a forcing bid or not depends on the bidding sequence, not the fact that it's the 4th suit. In this case,

1 ♦ - 1 ♥
2 ♣ - 2 ♠

responder is making a "reverse" as responder (meaning you have to go to the next higher level to preference back to responder's original suit) and should show about opening values, presumably 4+ ♠, and longer ♥.

If the major cards in the example hand had been exactly reversed, then the bidding sequence might possibly be

1 ♦ - 1 ♠
2 ♣ - 2 ♥

but responder's 2 ♥ bid would still allow opener to preference to ♠ by bidding 2 ♠. So this natural bid would be non-forcing. So to force responder would have to jump to 3 ♥ rather than bidding 2 ♥. Both possible ♥ bids imply longer ♠ (5+) then ♥ (4+).

In the actual sequence originally asked about, you might ask "Why responder is bidding ♠, when opener has pretty much denied a 4 card ♠ suit by not rebidding 1 ♠?" By rebidding 2 ♠, responder is also showing 5+ ♥ which may allow finding a 5-3 fit when one exists. If responder held exactly 4-4 in the majors, then responder could rebid in NT or raise in a minor.

[mike777]

 Dinarius, on 2016-August-18, 01:09, said:

♠ J,10,9,7
♥ A,K,8,7,2
♦A,9
♣ K,9

Playing 12-14 NT and 4 card Majors, the bidding goes:

Partner You
♦1 ♥1
♣ 2 ?

Fourth suit isn't forcing.

Thanks.

D.

I will try 2spades here. If partner passes hopefully we are not too high.

[Zelandakh]

 The_Badger, on 2016-August-18, 12:23, said:

It's standard these days to play FSF as game forcing. Once upon a time, in the long, lost past, it was only forcing for one round.

That rather depends on where you live. In Germany, France and the UK (inter alia) it is as far as I know still most common to play a "cheap" 4th suit bid (ie, lower than 2 of Responder's first bid suit) not to be a game force. American methods are not an international standard!

[Vampyr]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-August-18, 18:53, said:

That rather depends on where you live. In Germany, France and the UK (inter alia) it is as far as I know still most common to play a "cheap" 4th suit bid (ie, lower than 2 of Responder's first bid suit) not to be a game force. American methods are not an international standard!

No, but in the UK game forcing is most common. Well I don't know actually. In London anyway.

[Vampyr]

 mike777, on 2016-August-18, 16:12, said:

I will try 2spades here. If partner passes hopefully we are not too high.

I think that with 15 HCP opposite an opening bid you should be OK at the 2-level, even in possibly your worst fit.

Or did you mean high in another sense?

[SteveMoe]

While you want to be in 3NT if partner has 0-2 ♠ cards, there's no need to bid 3N right away. Partner has shown 9 cards in the minors. You have extras. Bidding 2♠, whether 4SF or Natural (F1R), you will find out if partner has 3-card ♥ support next. If not, 3N here we come.

[Dinarius]

Thanks for the replies.

Ignoring the above hand, but using the same bidding sequence; in your systems, what would a jump to 3♠mean?

So....

1♦1♥
2♣ 3♠

....would indicate what?

Thanks.

D.

[wank]

splinter for clubs. it's really not 'our bidding systems'. it's all bidding systems (natural ones anyway). if you really play that 2S is not forcing there, you're in a minority of 1.

[Caitlynne]

I sure hope 2S is forcing at least one round whether you play it natural or (possibly) artificial. If not, your methods are unplayable.

The reason you need some forcing bid is that you need clarification from your partner. You potentially have MONSTEROUSLY HUGE cards - AK of hearts and the Ax in one of partner's suits and Kx in the other. If partner has 5-4 or 5-5 in the minors, 3NT may very well be the right spot. But, if partner is 6-4 or 6-5 in the minors, you could easily have slam - even a grand slam is not unlikely.

So you need a forcing bid at a low level to empower partner to provide the needed clarification. If you don't have that, it is time to dump your system.

[msjennifer]

Even conceding that in your so called "system" fourth suit is not forcing,the 2S bid is forcing ,in the example here ,as it is not only a fourth suit but is " a responders reverse", since it forces you to choose the first bid suit ,with a 3 card support ,one level higher.A reverse by responder is forcing in any system.Your profile says you prefer Acol system.If so your system ,where 2S is nonforcing ,is a grand new Acol system invented by you..My rather crude sounding unasked-for " comment" is "back to school and try and learn any logical system and that includes Acol".Even Victor Mollo's Rueful Rabbit will not pass a 2S bid in this example !
,

[Stefan_O]

 Dinarius, on 2016-August-18, 01:09, said:

Fourth suit isn't forcing.

Yes! Of course, it is!!

Will only add that in this sequence, particularly, there is no need at all for a natural 2♠ bid, since opener has already denied 4-card ♠ suit.
If opener had ♠ he would have bid 1♠ over 1♥, but here he did not.

[cynac]

Weird thread.
If not playing "fourth suit forcing", then 2s shows four apades, and is forcing for normal reasons.
Poster may be newish to game and not realise this.
JL

[BSpiljak]

3NT, plain and simple. If 4th suit isn't forcing then I guess a lot of science is out as well.
Don't like to be tempted into dubious slam auction and I really don't mind playing 3NT even if pard is void in ♠.