[Phil]

Vampyr, on 2016-May-24, 09:38, said:

Many people respond on 6 or even 5 points. Would you say they have to bid 1NT? Fine if it's forcing, not so great if it isn't.

Yes, with 5-7, 1N is preferred, even if 1N isn't forcing. 2/1 partnerships use either forcing or semi-forcing (which means the call can be made with up to a bad 12), so opener can pass 1N with 11 to a bad 13 balanced. That's the worst-case scenario, but sometimes 1N can play OK even if 2S is a little better.

But it's worth splitting up the 5-7 / 8-10 ranges even if we might occasionally play an inferior partial.

[Vampyr]

Phil, on 2016-May-24, 10:33, said:

Yes, with 5-7, 1N is preferred, even if 1N isn't forcing.

It is also not preferred. Obviously depends on who you ask.

[Phil]

Vampyr, on 2016-May-24, 10:55, said:

It is also not preferred. Obviously depends on who you ask.

Stefanie, I'm pretty much explaining what standard 2/1 encompasses. It's not SAYC and certainly not ACOL. I don't know what you play in your partnerships but I can tell you that what I'm suggesting is played by most top pairs. In addition, I've given some wiggle room on what the ranges can be and it would be helpful if the discussion focuses on the specific aspects of evaluation and approach rather on higher level questions about the wisdom of having a wide versus a narrow range for 1M - 2M.

If you want to engage in a debate about the merits of raising to 2M on trashy 6 counts, I'd suggest we do it in a different thread.

Thanks.

[eagles123]

Tramticket, on 2016-May-24, 08:56, said:

Part of this is partnership style and philosophy.

Do you have the sort of partnership where one partner takes control, asks the questions and his partner is simply expected to respond: "yes" or "no" based on tightly defined questions.

For me the game try says:
- I have invitational values. [Remember invitational hands can vary enormously and a help suit isn't always clear cut].
- This is a suit where I may need some help.

It also asks partner whether he/she can help in the search for game
- Do they have helpful high cards in the suit?
- Or helpful shortage?
- Or general overall strength?

I expect both partnership members to exercise judgement.

On the example hand my judgement would be to bid game.

This has nothing to do with Partnership style and philosophy - not bidding 4s here would just be plain wrong, we have a total max 2S, our club holding has become an irrelevance.

[wanoff]

It's not just a max 2♠ but a working max. You wouldn't for instance bid 4 with xxx KQx Axxx xxx.

[Phil]

Continued...

3. If I'm making a game try, what's a good holding?

It's essentially any holding where you want partner to upgrade his K's, Q's and J's. I read somewhere that ATx(x) is perfect, but any H-empty is suitable, or HH-empty. A singleton or doubleton are poor holdings, and xxx or xxxx are bad too. A singleton isn't really a great holding in partners help suit because trump leads will negate the value.

If you don't have an acceptable suit to make a game try in, you can either bid 2N or 3M, which is a general inquiry. You can also employ Kokish Game Tries which asks partner to name what suit he would accept a game try in. Frankly, these are better because it discloses less of openers hand which is frequently critical because when we bid game in thelse auctions it's generally close.

Occasionally you will have a very strong hand that wants to make a slam try opposite a single raise. These hands can also make a help suit try.

4. What are responders options?

Again, we are looking for a total of 2.5 to 3 cover cards. Q's in the suit and JT holdings are also valuable. You can make a 'counter accept', if you aren't sure. This shows a good hand, but doesn't fit with partner.

In general:

A. With a minimum hand with no help, sign off.

B. With a minimum hand and help, accept or counter accept.

C. With a medium hand with help, accept.

D. With a medium hand that doesnt fit, sign off or make a counter try.

E. With a max and and help, raise the help suit or counter try (cue).

F. With a max and no help, accept.

My personal philosophy is a jump to game denies a maximum, but, whose hand was improved by the help suit.

[humilities]

Regardless of your interpretation of Help Suit games tries, clearly partner CAN NOT be saying "I'm confident we can make game if you can cover the club suit" ...right? I mean, he *is* also missing the KQ of trump and the A of diamonds.

Given that you can cover these three losers, and can't have any more, wouldn't that imply bidding game regardless of your club holding?

[fhacker]

I would bid 4♠. My bidding style is to be conservative with my invitations and aggressive with my acceptances. With 3 good trump and an outside ace I wouldn't consider 3♠. I understand the rationale for 3♦. I don't have what you asked for, but I do have something else. I find help suit game tries to be useful with weaker hands. I might go on with 4 trumps and the ace or a singleton in the help suit.

[Vampyr]

Phil, on 2016-May-24, 11:34, said:

Stefanie, I'm pretty much explaining what standard 2/1 encompasses.

But you need to specify that your comments are in the context of a particular system, if only because the OP didn't specify what system he was playing.

[Hu Flung D]

Absolutely not! While max for your response, the discreet question is about the club suit in which you cannot assist at all. Bid 3S ... the fact that you are maximum for your response does not compensate.

[msjennifer]

4S. There are three cover cards which are enough.

[GrahamJson]

Help suit game tries are I guess what Acol used to call trial bids. The general rule was that with a minimum you sign off, with a maximum, as here, you accept and with in between you look at your holding in the trial suit. If partner is looking for a maximum and a perfect fit he is being too optimistic.

[miamijd]

TylerE, on 2016-May-23, 13:42, said:

This sort of attitude sounds like an abuse of the bid. Partner has PLENTY of other ways of asking if I have a good 2♠ bid. Like bidding 3♠. Partner didn't do that. Partner asked about clubs and I have probably the 2nd least useful possible club holding.

No, 3S is not a game try. It's a shutout bid, at least in standard expert.

If partner doesn't have a reasonable play for game opposite three cover cards, he probably shouldn't have made a game try.

[Phil]

Vampyr, on 2016-May-25, 08:29, said:

But you need to specify that your comments are in the context of a particular system, if only because the OP didn't specify what system he was playing.

Fair point. I have no idea how Acol works in this regard when 1M can be 4. In SAYC where 2M has to be overly wide by its nature, these auctions won't have the same precision.

But since 2/1 is largely the lingua franca, especially for developing players, it seems like a safe assumption.

[PhilKing]

The brutal truth is that anyone who signs off in 3♠ (and 3♦ is only a little better) does not know how to construct or evaluate a hand.

Starting with basic evaluation - do you seriously want four cover cards to accept a game try here?

But when one considers a typical hand for 3♣: ♠Axxxx ♥AQx ♦x ♣AJ9x, if we sign off, partner will think that we have no faith in his dummy play. And on this layout we had four covers - the club ten gives us a decent shot at eleven tricks.

[mycroft]

That hand will happily accept a 3♦ countertry, saying "I can't cover your losers in clubs, but I have enough that if you can cover my losers in diamonds we still have game."

Three aces and a convenient stiff(*); if that's typical, you have better partners than I :-). I do guess I'm coloured by the fact I usually play Kokish GT, and partner won't count Qxx as "help". With your hand I'd be SSGT 3♦ rather than asking for club help. Those who don't have separate short and long GTs will have other ideas about what is "help in clubs".

Do I need 4 cover cards to accept a game try? No, I need 1 to 1.5 - in the suit partner asked me for cover in. I'll do it with 6 high if I have the cards, because that's what partner asked me to focus on; 9 without won't save me from "three-losers-and-a-trick", so I don't bid game unilaterally without help in that suit.

(*) And that beautiful ♣9, also convenient - does that mean you don't blast 4♠ with ♣7xx?

[1eyedjack]

I think that if opener has a shortage he should be making a short suit trial rather than long. Conversely, if he makes a long suit trial there is a strong inference that he does not have a short. Hence my thought expressed earlier in this thread that 3N is a serious contender. I can well imagine 9 on top with no 10th in sight. They may even have 4 cashing tricks first and still make 3N.