[Vampyr]

Some years ago I saw a lovely performance by a Russian women's choir. They were all young and were singing English madrigals. The only flaw in their performance was the last line of The Silver Swan: More jeese than swans now live, more fools than wise.

But they had an excuse; they were not English speakers, but they knew a rule and followed it.

[Cyberyeti]

It always amuses me when Americans try to pronounce English place names where syllables are missed out in the English version.

Lye-sess-ter (Leicester - pronounced LESter) is probably the one most commonly mangled due to the London square.

Norfolk where I live is particularly bad for these.

Tacolnestone - (pronounced TACKle-stun)
Stiffkey - (pronounced STU-key)

There is a story of an American in one of the old 3 wide american cars asking a Norwich policeman "Where do I find route 1066 to FAY-KEN-HAM city". Fakenham (pronounced FAY-k'num) is on the A1066.

[kuhchung]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-10, 18:18, said:

It always amuses me when Americans try to pronounce English place names where syllables are missed out in the English version.

Lye-sess-ter (Leicester - pronounced LESter) is probably the one most commonly mangled due to the London square.

Norfolk where I live is particularly bad for these.

Tacolnestone - (pronounced TACKle-stun)
Stiffkey - (pronounced STU-key)

There is a story of an American in one of the old 3 wide american cars asking a Norwich policeman "Where do I find route 1066 to FAY-KEN-HAM city". Fakenham (pronounced FAY-k'num) is on the A1066.

Wow, I blame you guys for this. A LOT.

[kenberg]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-10, 18:18, said:

It always amuses me when Americans try to pronounce English place names where syllables are missed out in the English version.

Lye-sess-ter (Leicester - pronounced LESter) is probably the one most commonly mangled due to the London square.

Norfolk where I live is particularly bad for these.

Tacolnestone - (pronounced TACKle-stun)
Stiffkey - (pronounced STU-key)

There is a story of an American in one of the old 3 wide american cars asking a Norwich policeman "Where do I find route 1066 to FAY-KEN-HAM city". Fakenham (pronounced FAY-k'num) is on the A1066.

Since you brought this up


Suppose an Englishman sees the word Stiffkey for the very first time. Does he immediately know that it is pronounced STU-key?

I mentioned about the street Gera near me in Maryland. I really do not know if the G is as in geriatric or as in geese. I don't know anyone living on the street, and for all I know next door neighbors pronounce it differently.


When I was in Oxford (visiting, nut studying) oh so many years ago it took a while before I realized Maudlin College was Magdalen College. (well, I was only there for an afternoon so "quite a while" means "after a bit".) Somehow I knew about Lester Square in London, but there were others that I never did figure out.

I figured oh well, it's their language, not my business. But from time to time I have wondered if there is some discernible pattern or if you just learn them one by one.

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-10, 18:18, said:

It always amuses me when Americans try to pronounce English place names where syllables are missed out in the English version.

Blackley in Manchester is another that causes problems, even sometimes for celebrities doing a gig there. For the record it is Blake-Lee and not Black-lee.

[Cyberyeti]

kenberg, on 2016-February-10, 21:57, said:

Since you brought this up

Suppose an Englishman sees the word Stiffkey for the very first time. Does he immediately know that it is pronounced STU-key?

No, but that was just an example of a local one which is a very small place, the larger ones like Wymondham (wimd'm or wind'm) and Leominster (Lemster) are pretty well known.

[Zelandakh]

There was a report in a national newspaper a couple of years ago saying that well over half of Brits pronounced Ely wrongly. Other place names that caused difficulties nationally were Keighley, St Pancras and Greenwitch. A word of warning though - the survey was commissioned by St Pancras railway station, so there was perhaps a vested interest in making the results as "interesting" as possible so as to get the name into the media.

[WellSpyder]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-11, 05:37, said:

No, but that was just an example of a local one which is a very small place, the larger ones like Wymondham (wimd'm or wind'm) and Leominster (Lemster) are pretty well known.

That was the point Ken was getting at, I think. You have to know them since there is no rule by which even a native Englishman can get them right if he or she hasn't heard them before.

[kenberg]

WellSpyder, on 2016-February-11, 07:03, said:

That was the point Ken was getting at, I think. You have to know them since there is no rule by which even a native Englishman can get them right if he or she hasn't heard them before.

Yes, that is what I had in mind. To some extent, this happens everywhere. For example the town of Lima in Ohio is pronounced Lie-ma, as in lima beans. And you can hear a variety of pronunciations of Havre de Grace here in Maryland. But except for misguided attempts at French, usually the choice will boil down to a couple of reasonable alternatives. Back to the neighborhood street of Gera. I know of no rule that tells me whether the G hard or soft, but I feel confident that it is not pronounced, for example, as Gee-ray.

Everyone (I suppose) knows "Why can't the English learn to speak" from My Fair Lady (and yes, the same sentiments from the earlier Shaw play). "This verbal class distinction by now should be antique". But of course it isn't. Some weird things stick in my mind. I was pushing my daughter in a stroller (she is now in her 50s) and stopped to chat with some neighbors. I mentioned that I had to head home for dinner. They said something about how they go home for supper, saying this in a manner that implied I was putting on airs by referring to dinner. I can imagine the same might take place in England: Oh, la de da, he is going to STU key, I only go to Stiff key.

[gwnn]

I didn't know Zoltán Gera was so popular in Maryland Maybe in Fulham (another slightly funny name in Britain), not in Maryland.

[WellSpyder]

gwnn, on 2016-February-11, 09:07, said:

Fulham (another slightly funny name in Britain)

At least we do have a general rule there that means a native Englishman doesn't need to have heard the place name before. Somebody may be able to come up with an exception, but in general when a place name ends in "ham" the syllable is unstressed, and the "h" is not sounded.

[billw55]

Yeah, English place names flummox me. Leicester --> Lester. Manchester --> Munster? Noooo

[barmar]

There are cities named Wooster in Ohio and Arizona. Here in Massachusetts we have Worcester. The pronunciations are approximately the same, presumably a relic of Massachusetts's history as a British colony.

But yeah, these ideosyncratic pronunciations just have to be learned from experience, much like all the different ways that words ending in "gh" are pronounced (e.g. "rough" versus "through").

[kuhchung]

This is why we should spell it "ruff" no matter what

[kenberg]

gwnn, on 2016-February-11, 09:07, said:

I didn't know Zoltán Gera was so popular in Maryland Maybe in Fulham (another slightly funny name in Britain), not in Maryland.

Grrreat!!!

If I am understanding pronunciation link the G is as in goose. And if anyone challenges me on it, I can explain that I just assumed everyone knew the correct Hungarian pronunciation.

[gwnn]

Yes G from goose, the rest more or less normally.

[billw55]

barmar, on 2016-February-11, 11:35, said:

There are cities named Wooster in Ohio and Arizona. Here in Massachusetts we have Worcester. The pronunciations are approximately the same, presumably a relic of Massachusetts's history as a British colony.

Heh. My wife makes a barbecue sauce that has worcestershire sauce as an ingredient. It aggravates her when I pronounce this as "woostusher". (My Dad was from New Hampshire and explained the town name to me. Not sure if it applies to condiments but I just go with it.)

gwnn, on 2016-February-11, 13:10, said:

Yes G from goose, the rest more or less normally.

Aha but what about G in gwnn?

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on 2016-February-11, 13:10, said:

Yes G from goose, the rest more or less normally.

The e in Gera is pronounced as in egg isn't it ? The commentators here tended to pronounce it as in gear.

[kenberg]

billw55, on 2016-February-11, 13:19, said:

Heh. My wife makes a barbecue sauce that has worcestershire sauce as an ingredient. It aggravates her when I pronounce this as "woostusher". (My Dad was from New Hampshire and explained the town name to me. Not sure if it applies to condiments but I just go with it.)

I was taught the same pronunciation growing up in Minnesota. I can't really explain this.


As for February, I was taught in school that the first r is silent. A child needs to be very wary of what he is taught.

[gwnn]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-February-11, 13:58, said:

The e in Gera is pronounced as in egg isn't it ? The commentators here tended to pronounce it as in gear.

Yes, like egg. And "a" is fully articulated, similarly to the "o" in along. Maybe normal was a slightly subjective term.

About gwnn, I actually never really need to pronounce it. When I do it in my head I say "güvününü" with short ü sounds (a common way of "spelling" stuff in Romanian and I think a lot of languages which don't have interesting names of letters) which is dorky and isn't close to (and clearly worse than) anything anyone else does.