[Zelandakh]

So the solution to better slam bidding is to play S3NT a level higher? Interesting concept...

[johnu]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-October-15, 16:57, said:

So the solution to better slam bidding is to play S3NT a level higher? Interesting concept...

LOL, better to just ask questions if you don't understand the basic concepts.

[Lovera]

Hi, i am glad to see that this my topic seems very interesting. For instance i want say too that those indications of values are limited in first cue (1 or 2 round) and not necessary means partner had to continue in Italian style cuebidding using instead classic way. To complete the informations about Queen query on 5♣ and 5♦ could be used two steps schale (Q not/Q yes) but i suggest to remain on RKCB mode (cheapest K plus Q=suit of K, suit of cue= Q plus A in cue suit).

[lycier]

Anyhow,75% of determination methods of RKCB number are done by 4nt in all of the bridge game hands in fact.

[Lovera]

It is natural to refer it at RKCB (as definite) because either much used or other slam searching conventions have done (and this one too). When a trump is agree and at 4th level is bidded a new suit as cue partner, if conditions are, is sollecited to 4NT to know controlls in three suits aside (eventual ambiguity can be solved via 5NT) that complete its hand (this mechanism could be expanded).

[Lovera]

When 4NT bidder needs to clear eventual ambiguities can bid 5NT and, to retain the same method in RKCB, it is possible to have this one: 1) on answer of 5♣(=2A+0K) needing to know if in cue suit there is K or A: 6 of cue suit with K, 6 of trump agree with A(=no K). On 5♦/♥/♠ needing to difference alternatives: with K in cue suit plus a K aside bid 6 of an aside suit below trump, with A in cue suit plus 1 K aside bid 6 of cue suit, with 2/3 Kings bid 6 of trump agree.

[Lovera]

Let's consider another hand : N ♠ QJ10753 ♥ A8 ♦ A93 ♣ K7 S ♠ AK64 ♥ KQJ64 ♦ KQ ♣ Q4 Bidding: N-S 1 ♠-3♥, 3♠-4♦(=cue ,1/2 round c.), 4 NT(=almost 5 c.)-5♦(=1A+1/2K, A or K in trump) and S if want to know how many K N has bids 5NT :the answer of 6♠ means more(=2) Kings.

[Lovera]

Let's continue explaining what's the meaning of "this conv. can be expanded". When i have told 5 controlls initially intending refer to 2A+1K it was for a more probable case but you can have also 1A+3K(=5 c.) when 4NT is bidded and for him is easier to read hand of partner that is more defined. Infact reponses are: 5♣(=2A) and in cue suit 1 or 2 round c. but subsequently ansewers, necessarly, reveals in cue an A and with 5♦(=1A+1K) whilest 5♥/♠(=2A+1K) and Q indication and remaining available 5NT for other meanings. The ultherior case is when there are one or two controlls in reponse(= one King or Ace or two Kings). To avoid ambiguity this eventuality succeds when a simple raise(=1 M-2 M) or a NT bidding has limited the hand in force(=11 points max) excluding responder has more Aces or Kings. Then, and doesn't get off contract, answers are changed in 5♣(= King of trump), 5♦(=1A or 2K with Q of trump suit), 5♥(= idem without Q of trump suit) with a top honor in trump suit but the case partner had indicated a self supporting suit. The third case is when in the hand of responder there is a void. In this latter interesting situation to differentiate with other biddings the cue is up and not below trump suit (can be possibility to indicate a generic void also not in cue suit but in other one in the hand) expanding range and complexity in this bidding.

[kenrexford]

Why don't you take an opposing view and make this thread really blow up?

[Lovera]

 kenrexford, on 2015-November-07, 17:57, said:

Why don't you take an opposing view and make this thread really blow up?

Hello. I had to say that you don't think i don't want hearing suggests. I have tried to develop a new more simple and alternative method based on controlls (becaming from an old conv. and "up-to-date" relating with RKB ) naturally to verify; subsequently in my last post i have indicated the remaining steps (for 2 or 1 c.) to complete this my idea. This last part of this conv. can give any problem and for this aim i have initially to analyze when are more controlls looking for hands to confirm it or if can find any problematic case (but i don't untill now), bye.

[kenrexford]

I agree.

[Lovera]

 johnu, on 2015-October-15, 21:48, said:

LOL, better to just ask questions if you don't understand the basic concepts.

Chapter XI M. CUE-BIDS AND ASKINGS I. Conventions informative for controls in a suit M.1. Cue-bids (..) In modern systems such as the Roman Club or the Blue-Team Club the meaning of the cue-bids (defined as "informative" in the Roman Club and Precision System) has become more elastic (and than of difficult application out of those systems). The fundamental principles to which they are ruled are in fact: a) the "first informative" [from now called F.I.]indicates a strong hand if performed in a non-forcing bidding situation or a hand above the minimum if carried out in a situation already forcing; b) F.I. may indicate a control of both first and second round; c) F.I.can not rule out the controls in the eventual skipped suit; d) the cue bid by responder excludes controls on skipped(=jumped) suit ;e) F.I. made on the suit immediately below trump agree asking for controlls in the next higher suit; f) an informative "jumped" from the respondent and used in a next round indicates a doubleton or Q; g) the jump in the trump suit above the level of game, after established the existence of controls in other suits, is an invitation to declare a slam with a good support in trump suit (..) The declaration of 4 NT has the meaning of "general cue bid" with which player asks to report the values ​​possessed and not shown or any plusvalue or extras (..) (From "Le convenzioni nel bridge" by Nino Ghelli -first edition 1973- pagg. 124-125).

[dboxley]

 johnu, on 2015-October-05, 22:13, said:

Not if you play 4NT as D.I.

I thought this thread was discussing RKC. No one plays DI anymore, not even any Italians.

[Lovera]

I have posted about the cue bid approach for a general knowoledge, reporting from the N. Ghelli book for a better description of this argoument improved/refined by the Italian Blue Team (you can see about it also the topic "Turbo" by Double! in General Bridge Discussion). On returning at this conventional bidding i initially have tested it on slam hands but this one is good for answers and to verify mechanism. Subsequently i have (quickly) watched many hundreds of hands with bidding starting from first level (not 1NT or more) and ending in game (from books that i have) non releving that the couple "cue-then 4NT" was presented (if one was the other not) but one in "Il Quadri Livorno" by Benito Bianchi: N ♠ AKxxx ♥ Axxx ♦ xx ♣ Jx S ♠ xx ♥ KJxx ♦ AQxx ♣ Kxx Bidding N/S 1♠-2♥, 3♥-4♥ but here (1♠ and raise at second round by N indicate an hand with bad 14 points) having to sure to play at fifth level bidding must end necessarly in game. About cue i have told of "a new suit at fourth level" but this concept can be more extensive (you can see it in my posts in the topic "Bidding question" in Intermediate or advanced ..).

[Lovera]

Let you look at this hand that has many points of aptention (from " Bridge Suspense Avec Pierre Jais " by P. Jais pagg.203-206) : E-W vul in E dealer Guiton in W Svarc (partnership tournament) W ♠ AKQJ84 ♥ K3 ♦ KQ1064 ♣ - E ♠ 109 ♥ AJ10652 ♦ - ♣ AKJ104. The original bidding was : 1♥-(S 2♦)-2♠-(p), 3♣-(3♦)-X-(p), 4♣-(p)-4NT-(p), 5NT(E indicates 2A+void)-(p)-7♠. This is instead my bidding : 1♣-(S 1♦)-2♠-(p), 3♦-(p)-3♠-(p), 4♦-(p)-4NT(having the same bidding between RKB and Bw for c.)-(p), 5♥(=2A+K easy to read w/o Q)-7♠. The bidding problem could be : for Bw E doesn't want or cannot bid (but here can) 4NT and can be inference with RKB standing agreement but here i want indicate this point of distributional value to apply in this conventional bidding (3♦ indicates rever club/heart and 4♦ a void agreeing spade and starts conv.).

[Lovera]

Because it is in a book that presents problems of bidding/play i'll tell that: the opening leads is ♣ 3 to J. The impasse is ok and Svarc discards a diamond. Little heart to K then diamond ruffed, Ace of club but S ruff Svarc overuffing, another diamond ruffed. What's planning line also in case of Queen of heart fifth in South ?

[Lovera]

"At first glance only one alternative: to beat the trump cards and do the impasse at the Queen of hearts ... closing his eyes. If the Q is in N third the hand is made. But the cards were instead: N ♠ 6532 ♥ 8 ♦ 5 ♣ Q986532 S ♠ 7 ♥ Q974 ♦ AJ98732 ♣ 7. Looking for an alternative, Svarc considered that with distributions so eccentric perhaps S had no trump, in which case not only the ♣ K could have taken, but one might have come to a final squeeze . So ♣ K and club ruffed .. to this ending: W ♠ A ♥ 3 ♦ K ♣ - N ♠ - ♥ - ♦ - ♣ Q98 E ♠ - ♥ AJ10 ♦ - ♣ - S ♠ - ♥ Q9 ♦ A ♣ - Svarc leads ♠ A and S is squeezed".

[Lovera]

This is another hand with Boulenger in N and Svarc in S that shows an exception in 4NT answer (the other should be void+2A):W ♠ AJ973 ♥ KQ108 ♦ 4 ♣942 N ♠ - ♥ A9765432 ♦ 108 ♣ AQ5 E ♠ 108642 ♥ J ♦ 653 ♣ K1073 S ♠ KQ5 ♥ - ♦ AKQJ972 ♣ J86 The original bidding was : N/S 1 ♥/3♦, 3♥/4♦(=selfsupp.suit), 5♣(=cue)/6♦, 7♦ My bidding is the same until 4♦ then 4♠(=void agree diamond)-4NT(five c. considering Q of trump as a K) and the answer of 5♣ tells N 2A and no K than bidding should end in 6♦.

[Lovera]

May i know if you agree or had experimented this my conventional bidding that allow you to indicate Aces and Kings togheter in aside cue suits ? It is not concorrential with RKCB or Kickback if you remaining in fourth level but integrative, bye.