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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#4981 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 10:15

Quote

But lots of other actions are being taken that I approve of, so on balance I am content


I copy and paste this quote only to have an example of a generic Trump supporter's views as recent polls show 85% of Republicans still approve of the president. I cannot understand how this is possible.
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#4982 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 11:26

 Al_U_Card, on 2017-February-28, 03:44, said:

Trump has some of these "qualities" so, like you, I will wait and see to judge by the results of his actions.

One of the biggest differences, though, is that Trump has absolutely no government or public service experience, while most (all?) you listed came up through the military and/or state/federal government (governors and senators).

Of course, that's what many of his supporters considered his main feature -- he was an outsider, and "business as usual" wasn't working for them. But the US government is a big ship to stear. It's like thinking that if a passenger had been at the helm of the Titanic, his alternative perspective would have allowed them to miss the iceberg. Maybe so, but he might run the ship into a reef instead.

#4983 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 11:28

 ldrews, on 2017-February-27, 16:40, said:

Well, let's wait and see what happens. Trump was elected President and has 4 years to make things happen. I will judge him on whether he does or not. The rest of this debate is fruitless.

"I wonder if guns are safe. Let's start shooting randomly, and judge them on whether anyone gets hurt."

#4984 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 11:55

 barmar, on 2017-February-28, 11:28, said:

"I wonder if guns are safe. Let's start shooting randomly, and judge them on whether anyone gets hurt."


If you think Trump is shooting randomly then I must question your ability to perceive reality.

Trump made a number of campaign promises. He is now fulfilling some of those promises. How is this random?
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#4985 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 12:06

 Winstonm, on 2017-February-28, 10:15, said:

I copy and paste this quote only to have an example of a generic Trump supporter's views as recent polls show 85% of Republicans still approve of the president. I cannot understand how this is possible.


It seems to me that if the anti-Trump people want to replace Trump at the next election, they need to work on understanding why his approval rating remains high among his supporters and addressing those issues. Otherwise the result is likely to be the same, another 4 years for Trump.

At this point I would predict that Trump will be re-elected. The rabid expressions and behavior of the anti-Trump people seems likely to drive independents and moderates toward Trump, not away. But just my opinion.
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#4986 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 13:37

 Winstonm, on 2017-February-28, 10:15, said:

I copy and paste this quote only to have an example of a generic Trump supporter's views as recent polls show 85% of Republicans still approve of the president. I cannot understand how this is possible.

The reason is simple:

Followers of populists are not looking at the results. They are happy with the fact that what they think is put on the agenda.

I am an engineer. When I see a problem, I will categorize it instantaneously: Is it solvable or is it not solvable? If it isn't, it isn't an interesting problem anymore. You just have to live with it. If it's solvable then it is a question on whether I want to spend my time and resources on actually solving it.

Polulist leaders pick problems that are unsolvable and that the population simply has to live with. The "technocrats" ignore those problems, since there is little one can do about them and they see worrying about them as a waste of time. The populist, however mentions those problems (and it doesn't even matter whether they are real or perceived problems), and the population is happy that finally somebody is bringing this up. Hooray!!

The next step is that the (real or perceived) problems cannot be solved (after all, they were unsolvable). Some would think that the populist leader would return to his voters and say: "Sorry, it was harder than I thought." But no, the populist leader knew up front that the problem couldn't be solved, so everything is still going according to plan. The next step is to blame his opponents for blocking the solution of the problem. The opponents can be political opponents (technocrats, "the elite") or foreign opponents (in Europe that means "Brussels") or others (the media, the judicial system). Whoever they are, they are blocking the solution of the problem.

Blaming others from blocking the solutions is the way to keep the electorate happy: "He is working hard at it, but the ... (fill in) making it impossible to do his job." and they will vote for the populist again.

The "Muslim ban" is an example: Terrorism is a problem. There are no simple solutions. So, the populist starts by placing it on the agenda and making it as big as possible. Then, he comes with a "solution": Banning people from 7 countries. (Of course, this doesn't solve the problem and the populist knows that.) Unfortunately, simply banning people is illegal and the judicial system stops the ban. From now on, terrorism is their fault, even if the next terrorist attack is committed by someone from Faroer (an island group north of Scotland). "He tried to prevent it, but the judges didn't let him."

Rik
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#4987 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 14:02

 Trinidad, on 2017-February-28, 13:37, said:

The reason is simple:

Followers of populists are not looking at the results. They are happy with the fact that what they think is put on the agenda.

I am an engineer. When I see a problem, I will categorize it instantaneously: Is it solvable or is it not solvable? If it isn't, it isn't an interesting problem anymore. You just have to live with it. If it's solvable then it is a question on whether I want to spend my time and resources on actually solving it.

Polulist leaders pick problems that are unsolvable and that the population simply has to live with. The "technocrats" ignore those problems, since there is little one can do about them and they see worrying about them as a waste of time. The populist, however mentions those problems (and it doesn't even matter whether they are real or perceived problems), and the population is happy that finally somebody is bringing this up. Hooray!!

The next step is that the (real or perceived) problems cannot be solved (after all, they were unsolvable). Some would think that the populist leader would return to his voters and say: "Sorry, it was harder than I thought." But no, the populist leader knew up front that the problem couldn't be solved, so everything is still going according to plan. The next step is to blame his opponents for blocking the solution of the problem. The opponents can be political opponents (technocrats, "the elite") or foreign opponents (in Europe that means "Brussels") or others (the media, the judicial system). Whoever they are, they are blocking the solution of the problem.

Blaming others from blocking the solutions is the way to keep the electorate happy: "He is working hard at it, but the ... (fill in) making it impossible to do his job." and they will vote for the populist again.

The "Muslim ban" is an example: Terrorism is a problem. There are no simple solutions. So, the populist starts by placing it on the agenda and making it as big as possible. Then, he comes with a "solution": Banning people from 7 countries. (Of course, this doesn't solve the problem and the populist knows that.) Unfortunately, simply banning people is illegal and the judicial system stops the ban. From now on, terrorism is their fault, even if the next terrorist attack is committed by someone from Faroer (an island group north of Scotland). "He tried to prevent it, but the judges didn't let him."

Rik


I think you are exactly right on this. I would add that populists are always extremely careful not to offer detailed solutions. This is, of course, consistent with your notion that the populist knows that there are no good solutions. So rather than offer anything detailed, there will be token efforts, intended to fail (by provoking opposition including judicial invalidation).

We're going to hear a lot more about this later today, when Trump announces his desire for an increase in military spending of almost 10%. I doubt that there will be any attempt to explain, for example, how a new nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is going to prevent terrorism. However, a lot of ignorant low-income people are going to feel vicariously powerful as a result. Then when the next terrorist event happens, nobody is going to point out that the military buildup was the wrong response.....the argument will be that it didn't go far enough...we need to do more....and more....and more.

The worst will be when he tries to get further restrictions on civil liberties. Customs officials are already acting outrageously, including demanding 'papers' from passengers on a domestic flight. What is horrifying is that every single passenger meekly complied, and that the airline directed them to do so.

He's already laying the groundwork for restrictions on freedom of the press. He's trying to make the free press out to be the enemy of the people....and once that attains credibility, then it is a simple and short step to censorship. Don't think it can't happen. Remember, he gets to appoint hundreds of judges because the republicans blocked Obama appointments throughout the federal judiciary. Does anyone think that Alito or Thomas, for two, would rule temporary constraints on freedom of the press as unconstitutional if this was in response to a major threat or event? Say a war with China, as Bannon predicts is inevitable within the next few years?

This has all the hallmarks of Germany in 1932-3 and Russia in the immediate aftermath of Putin's election as Russian President. Oppoaition figures naively said that the establishment, the bureaucracy would stand up to the autocrat. Almost all knuckled under without protest.

That is how democracies die, and it is naïve to think that the US is any different. Consider how Japanese-americans were put into concentration camps, and consider how almost all media, Hollywood and members of Congress rolled over to Joseph McCarthy. Don't ever say it can't happen here.

Bear in mind that Trump is already calling for a one-party state!
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#4988 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 14:59

 ldrews, on 2017-February-28, 11:55, said:

If you think Trump is shooting randomly then I must question your ability to perceive reality.

Trump made a number of campaign promises. He is now fulfilling some of those promises. How is this random?

You missed the point of the analogy. It's not the randomness, it's the willingness to wait until after the potential damage to decide whether the initial decision was a good idea.

#4989 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 15:12

 mikeh, on 2017-February-28, 04:43, said:

I would be delighted to see Trump share the innate strengths of any of these (Kennedy the least).


This quote gave me a rofl moment and evoked memories of Ann of Green Gables
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#4990 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 15:15

 mikeh, on 2017-February-28, 04:43, said:

I would be delighted to see Trump share the innate strengths of any of these (Kennedy the least).

Who'd think we would be looking back fondly at the "competence" of George W. Bush?

Of course, now ldrews will reply with all the great things Bush did, like "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq.

#4991 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 17:19

 barmar, on 2017-February-28, 15:15, said:

Who'd think we would be looking back fondly at the "competence" of George W. Bush?

Of course, now ldrews will reply with all the great things Bush did, like "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq.


Why would you think that? U thought George W. Bush was an idiot. I did not vote for him.
Would you like to lay out all of your other assumptions and projections about me?
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#4992 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 17:27

 Trinidad, on 2017-February-28, 13:37, said:

The reason is simple:

Followers of populists are not looking at the results. They are happy with the fact that what they think is put on the agenda.

I am an engineer. When I see a problem, I will categorize it instantaneously: Is it solvable or is it not solvable? If it isn't, it isn't an interesting problem anymore. You just have to live with it. If it's solvable then it is a question on whether I want to spend my time and resources on actually solving it.

Polulist leaders pick problems that are unsolvable and that the population simply has to live with. The "technocrats" ignore those problems, since there is little one can do about them and they see worrying about them as a waste of time. The populist, however mentions those problems (and it doesn't even matter whether they are real or perceived problems), and the population is happy that finally somebody is bringing this up. Hooray!!

The next step is that the (real or perceived) problems cannot be solved (after all, they were unsolvable). Some would think that the populist leader would return to his voters and say: "Sorry, it was harder than I thought." But no, the populist leader knew up front that the problem couldn't be solved, so everything is still going according to plan. The next step is to blame his opponents for blocking the solution of the problem. The opponents can be political opponents (technocrats, "the elite") or foreign opponents (in Europe that means "Brussels") or others (the media, the judicial system). Whoever they are, they are blocking the solution of the problem.

Blaming others from blocking the solutions is the way to keep the electorate happy: "He is working hard at it, but the ... (fill in) making it impossible to do his job." and they will vote for the populist again.

The "Muslim ban" is an example: Terrorism is a problem. There are no simple solutions. So, the populist starts by placing it on the agenda and making it as big as possible. Then, he comes with a "solution": Banning people from 7 countries. (Of course, this doesn't solve the problem and the populist knows that.) Unfortunately, simply banning people is illegal and the judicial system stops the ban. From now on, terrorism is their fault, even if the next terrorist attack is committed by someone from Faroer (an island group north of Scotland). "He tried to prevent it, but the judges didn't let him."

Rik


I am also an engineer (software). One of the lessons of software development over the last 60 years is that big, centralized projects generally fail. I think you make the same mistake. Trying to come up with a centralized general solution to social problems often fails. So I suggest pushing the problem down to the local/individual level as much as possible and let the inherent creativity of the people come up with a multitude of solutions. Many of these will also fail but some will work. We can try to scale up those working solutions, or replicate them. To me, this is the populist approach. Stop thinking that a centralized government is going to solve the problems. It won't.
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#4993 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 18:24

Bill Gates says no country has solved the healthcare dilemma. Mark Cuban says no providers will voluntarily lower prices. Humana just announced that it will drop out of the Obamacare exchanges. Obamacare is in a death spiral. Obama asked representatives of each group of the providers to help create Obamacare. Consumers were not asked to the table. Who at this table was interested in lower the cost of healthcare? Molina is going broke.
Congressmen have great health insurance subsidized by taxpayers. Most people without health insurance from their employers are poor. Congress cannot relate to the poor. There is no way Trump or congress can create an affordable health plan for the poor. That would require a financial magician. For the poor have no money.
It would help if the plan for the uninsured eliminated the parasites who don't provide actual healthcare. No insurance companies. Minimal healthcare execs and healthcare managers. Absolutely no lawyers. Trump can reign in the FDA for needless delays increasing the cost of new products. Why should every new drug costs billions in development and years to reach market? Why is the Epipen generic taking years to reach market? There needs to be a total restart for those without health insurance. Leave those happy with their health insurance alone.
The VA still have not been able to serve military vets who have clearly earned their healthcare. No way, no how can out-of-touch career politicians fix healthcare. No new system can please everybody.
Healthcare is unsolvable. Trump will not fix healthcare in a manner satisfactory for all. The left will nicpik everything. Those with pre-existing conditions will be left out in the cold. Everyone is in favor of giving them healthcare. No one will agree to paying for it with their own money.
Still it should be an improvement over Obamacare.
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#4994 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 18:36

 jogs, on 2017-February-28, 18:24, said:

Bill Gates says no country has solved the healthcare dilemma. Mark Cuban says no providers will voluntarily lower prices. Humana just announced that it will drop out of the Obamacare exchanges. Obamacare is in a death spiral. Obama asked representatives of each group of the providers to help create Obamacare. Consumers were not asked to the table. Who at this table was interested in lower the cost of healthcare? Molina is going broke.
Congressmen have great health insurance subsidized by taxpayers. Most people without health insurance from their employers are poor. Congress cannot relate to the poor. There is no way Trump or congress can create an affordable health plan for the poor. That would require a financial magician. For the poor have no money.
It would help if the plan for the uninsured eliminated the parasites who don't provide actual healthcare. No insurance companies. Minimal healthcare execs and healthcare managers. Absolutely no lawyers. Trump can reign in the FDA for needless delays increasing the cost of new products. Why should every new drug costs billions in development and years to reach market? Why is the Epipen generic taking years to reach market? There needs to be a total restart for those without health insurance. Leave those happy with their health insurance alone.
The VA still have not been able to serve military vets who have clearly earned their healthcare. No way, no how can out-of-touch career politicians fix healthcare. No new system can please everybody.
Healthcare is unsolvable. Trump will not fix healthcare in a manner satisfactory for all. The left will nicpik everything. Those with pre-existing conditions will be left out in the cold. Everyone is in favor of giving them healthcare. No one will agree to paying for it with their own money.
Still it should be an improvement over Obamacare.


You do realize, don't you, that you have laid out an argument for single payer?
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#4995 User is offline   ldrews 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 19:39

 Winstonm, on 2017-February-28, 18:36, said:

You do realize, don't you, that you have laid out an argument for single payer?


The U.S has had a functioning single payer health system for years, Medicare. Why not just extend Medicare to cover everyone?
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#4996 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 23:40

 ldrews, on 2017-February-28, 19:39, said:

The U.S has had a functioning single payer health system for years, Medicare. Why not just extend Medicare to cover everyone?


Sure, now try to get a Republican administration to do just that. Impossible.
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#4997 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 23:47

 barmar, on 2017-February-24, 09:26, said:

Then what is the point of vouchers?


COMPETE...TO ALLOW FOR FAILURE? WITHOUT VOUCHERS....FAILURE/DESTRUCTION/REPLACE WITH SOMETHINGS IS NOT AN OPTION?
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#4998 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 23:51

 ldrews, on 2017-February-26, 14:16, said:

It seems to me that the media is one power center and the President is another. Per the 1st Amendment the President/government may not interfere with the free expression of opinions.
However, that does not imply that the President/government must cooperate with the press, nor does it prevent the President from expressing his opinion of the press. There is no legal requirement
that the President even hold a press conference (I believe before Truman they did not), much less have to invite everyone. The President has every right to cherry pick the attendees, just as the
press has every right to publish what they want within slander and defamation bounds.

It is up to you and I to support whomever we want and to express our opinions regarding the appropriateness of each party's actions. To me, this is just a power battle between power centers. We
probably have not seen anything yet.



YOU LEAVE OUT 2 IMPORTANT POWER CENTERS.....SO THE REST OF WHAT YOU WRITE DOES NOT FOLLOW
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#4999 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2017-February-28, 23:52

 barmar, on 2017-February-28, 11:26, said:

One of the biggest differences, though, is that Trump has absolutely no government or public service experience, while most (all?) you listed came up through the military and/or state/federal government (governors and senators).

Of course, that's what many of his supporters considered his main feature -- he was an outsider, and "business as usual" wasn't working for them. But the US government is a big ship to stear. It's like thinking that if a passenger had been at the helm of the Titanic, his alternative perspective would have allowed them to miss the iceberg. Maybe so, but he might run the ship into a reef instead.


YES
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Posted 2017-February-28, 23:54

 Trinidad, on 2017-February-28, 13:37, said:

The reason is simple:

Followers of populists are not looking at the results. They are happy with the fact that what they think is put on the agenda.

I am an engineer. When I see a problem, I will categorize it instantaneously: Is it solvable or is it not solvable? If it isn't, it isn't an interesting problem anymore. You just have to live with it. If it's solvable then it is a question on whether I want to spend my time and resources on actually solving it.

Polulist leaders pick problems that are unsolvable and that the population simply has to live with. The "technocrats" ignore those problems, since there is little one can do about them and they see worrying about them as a waste of time. The populist, however mentions those problems (and it doesn't even matter whether they are real or perceived problems), and the population is happy that finally somebody is bringing this up. Hooray!!

The next step is that the (real or perceived) problems cannot be solved (after all, they were unsolvable). Some would think that the populist leader would return to his voters and say: "Sorry, it was harder than I thought." But no, the populist leader knew up front that the problem couldn't be solved, so everything is still going according to plan. The next step is to blame his opponents for blocking the solution of the problem. The opponents can be political opponents (technocrats, "the elite") or foreign opponents (in Europe that means "Brussels") or others (the media, the judicial system). Whoever they are, they are blocking the solution of the problem.

Blaming others from blocking the solutions is the way to keep the electorate happy: "He is working hard at it, but the ... (fill in) making it impossible to do his job." and they will vote for the populist again.

The "Muslim ban" is an example: Terrorism is a problem. There are no simple solutions. So, the populist starts by placing it on the agenda and making it as big as possible. Then, he comes with a "solution": Banning people from 7 countries. (Of course, this doesn't solve the problem and the populist knows that.) Unfortunately, simply banning people is illegal and the judicial system stops the ban. From now on, terrorism is their fault, even if the next terrorist attack is committed by someone from Faroer (an island group north of Scotland). "He tried to prevent it, but the judges didn't let him."

Rik


AND YOUR POINT IS WHAT? you have a solution or you do not?


fwiw I am not even sure what the problem is you are trying to solve?
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