[Zelandakh]

I long ago decided that this was the wrong approach but if you want something then the easiest solution to the 2♥ response is to make Stayman promisory for invitational hands:

1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥
==
2♠ = 5+ clubs
... - 2NT
... - ... - 3♣ = 2335
... - ... - 3♦ = 3235
... - ... - 3♥ = 3325
... - ... - 3♠ = 2245
... - ... - 3NT = 6♣(322)
2NT = 5♦332
3♣ = (23)44
3♦ = 3334
3♥ = 3343
3♠ = 6♦(322)
--

1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2♠
==
2NT = 5 hearts
3♣ = 4 clubs
3♦ = 4 diamonds
3♥ = 4423
3♠ = 4432
3NT = 3433
--

1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2NT = invite and promises 4 spades
--

1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♣
==
3♦ = 5 spades
3♥ = 4 clubs
3♠ = 4 diamonds
3NT = 4333
--

1NT - 2♠ = range ask
--

Another option you might consider is to play 2♣ as Puppet Stayman to make the 2♦ response more common. Of course that comes with its own issues and I do not relay over that either even though it is part of the structure I prefer. I have toyed with the idea though...

[straube]

Free, on 2014-May-02, 08:57, said:

No problem
I'd even go so far to say that you shouldn't do this with 9+ AKQ points (= the minimum requirement for a 1♣ opening) and should keep 1♣-1♦-1NT for hands which don't meet the 1♣ requirements: too strong to open 11+-14 1NT but less than 9 AKQ points! The most extreme example is KQJT-KQJ-QJT-QJT, 18HCP with only 8 AKQ points. That way you don't have to open 1NT with these 15-16HCP hands and responder knows what to expect regarding strength. He might even stay out of some crappy games after the initial GF response (which is based on AKQ points only).

Just a reminder, but I suggested long ago that if you're waiting for something as bad as KQJT KQJ QJT QJT for opener to rebid 1N, then you might as well look into using 1C-1D, 1N as some unbalanced hand. It's a frequency issue. I use 1C-1D, 1N to show opener's unbalanced hands with 5+H and less than four spades. So it comes up a lot. 15% or so.

But this is all a side note. The only reason I brought up Moscito was to express surprise that some folks are so opposed to relaying opening 1N while accepting a balanced hand showing elsewhere. Apparently you and Richard do not do this as often as the Moscito 2005 document suggests.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2014-May-02, 09:33, said:

1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥
==
2♠ = 5+ clubs
... - 2NT
... - ... - 3♣ = 2335
... - ... - 3♦ = 3235
... - ... - 3♥ = 3325
... - ... - 3♠ = 2245
... - ... - 3NT = 6♣(322)
2NT = 5♦332
3♣ = (23)44
3♦ = 3334
3♥ = 3343
3♠ = 6♦(322)
--

This is an improvement on what I offered. We're obviously well-placed after 1N-2C, 2D and all I give up is garbage stayman.

I know 1N-2C, 2M-3C gets us rather high, but I've demonstrated that at the least responder will know of a side 4-cd minor by 3N and virtually always be able to stop at 4N. Isn't this on balance acceptable? And what do I really give up? The ability to show 4OM/5C?

I'm not looking to sacrifice my GI hands or depart from showing most of my unbalanced GF hands. Just a few in order to start the conversation for balanced hands a bit lower than Baron, etc.

[Zelandakh]

straube, on 2014-May-02, 09:59, said:

I'm not looking to sacrifice my GI hands or depart from showing most of my unbalanced GF hands. Just a few in order to start the conversation for balanced hands a bit lower than Baron, etc.

The thing is it ties you into certain structures that I like to use differently. As you know I use a Puppet structure and this seems to start looking just as low:

1NT - 2♣; 2D (no 5M)
==
2♥ = asks and denies 4 hearts
2♠ = shows 4 hearts and denies 4 spades
2NT = 4-4 majors and invitational
3♣ = 4+-4+ majors and GF
3♦ = 5+ diamonds, GF
3M = (13(45)

It is not full relays though, just trying to find a fit. In my regular Stayman structure I had 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ and 1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2♠ as range ask Baron with 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♦ as minor suit Baron with hearts linked to clubs and spades linked to diamonds. The reason being that I had a better use for the 3♣ rebid over 2♠. So it is not that the idea itself is wrong so much as that you need to consider what you might be giving up. If your structure is so efficient that you do not need to give anything up then why not? What do use these sequences for at the moment?

[straube]

Here's the whole thing. Some of the shape-showing relays are more complicated than I like...

2C...stayman promising a major
.....2D-none
..........2H-majors, p/c
..........2S-GI 5 spades, says nothing about hearts
..........2N-GI (could be 4S/5H with bad hearts)
..........3C-puppets 3D to show various 4M/5m patterns
..........3D-4S/5H GI
..........3H-4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6 slammish
..........3S-1-4-3-5 or 1-4-2-6 slammish
..........3N-likely both majors
..........4C-4-2-1-6
..........4D-2-4-1-6
.....2H-four hearts
..........2S-GI 5 spades
..........2N-GI 4 spades
..........3C-puppets to 3D to show 4 spades and unspecified shortness
..........3D-size ask with heart fit
..........3H-4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6
..........3S-4-3-1-5 or 4-2-1-6
..........3N-spade splinter!
..........4m-splinter
.....2S-four spades
..........similar to hearts

2D...transfer, 5 cards
......2S-GI, artificial
......2N-GF with a minor.
...........3C-no heart fit
.................3D-short spade
.................3H-3-5-4-1
.................3S-3-5-1-4
.................3N-no shortness or not slamming
.................4C-2-6-4-1
.................4D-2-6-1-4
...........etc. with heart fit
.....3C-GF, 4 spades
..........3D-no fit, asks shortness
.................3H-4-5-3-1
.................3S-4-5-1-3
.................3N-no shortness or not slamming
......3D-5 clubs
......3H-5 diamonds
......3S-self splinter
......3N-true COG (likely 5H332)
......4m-self splinter

2H-transfer
......2N-GF with a minor
......3C-GF with four hearts
......3D-GI+ with 5/5 in the majors
......3H-five clubs
......3S-five diamonds

2S-size ask
......2N-weak
......3C-strong
...........P-club bust
...........3D-short club, 3+M and 4+D
.................suits are bid up the line until a fit is found
...........3H-balanced slam try
...........3S-club slam try

2N-puppet stayman, usually not slammish
......3C-not 4333
..........3D-four hearts
..........3H-four spade
..........3S-1-3-(54)
......3D-unspecified 4333
...........3H-four spades
...........3S-four hearts
......3M-5 of major

3C-transfer
......3H-5/5 minors
......3S-diamond slam try

3D-short diamonds, 3+M and 4+C
.....suits bid up the line until a fit is found

3H-short hearts, 3+S and 4+m
.....3S-shows 4S
.....4S-shows 5S

3S-short spades, 4H and 4+m

[phoenix214]

I think that you may use something like CONFIT, which is used in Heeman(Bal vs Bal). It goes through the range ask.
After the range ask response, 3♦ is a control asking bid. After this you just show your 4 card suits naturally.
It is nothing too fancy, but it would allow you to find the suit fits, bal vs bal

[glen]

straube, on 2014-May-01, 22:19, said:

It's a good idea, but I play 1N-2D, 2H-2S as GI with 5+ hearts (allowing me to find a 5/3 at the 3-level) and 1N-2D, 2H-2N as GF with 5H/4m so unless I give something up here I haven't the ability to separate GI 5 from 4 hearts.

there is a design that compresses your 2♠ and 2NT, that is:

2D...transfer, 5 cards
......2S-GI, artificial
......2N-GF with a minor.
...........3C-no heart fit
.................3D-short spade
.................3H-3-5-4-1
.................3S-3-5-1-4
.................3N-no shortness or not slamming
.................4C-2-6-4-1
.................4D-2-6-1-4
...........etc. with heart fit

becomes:

2D...transfer, 5 cards
......2S-GI, artificial or GF with a minor
...........2NT-no heart fit, not GF
...........3C-no heart fit, GF
.................3D-short spade
.................3H-3-5-4-1
.................3S-3-5-1-4
.................3N-no shortness or not slamming
.................4C-2-6-4-1
.................4D-2-6-1-4
...........3D-heart fit, GF
...........3H-heart fit, not GF

[straube]

phoenix214, on 2014-May-03, 05:38, said:

I think that you may use something like CONFIT, which is used in Heeman(Bal vs Bal). It goes through the range ask.
After the range ask response, 3♦ is a control asking bid. After this you just show your 4 card suits naturally.
It is nothing too fancy, but it would allow you to find the suit fits, bal vs bal

Yes, this is what I do. 1N-2S, 2N/3C-3H,

3S-3 or 7 controls
3N-4 controls
4C-5 controls
etc-natural, 6 controls

It lets me stay out of slams missing 3 controls, but I don't really like it. Also, I think relay methods would be much better for determining when a grand is on.

[Kungsgeten]

We use relays after Stayman, but Stayman could also be bid on a lot of the normal Stayman hands. 2C is:

1. GF relay
2. Inv with 4 spades
3. Inv with 5-4 majors
4. GF with 5-4 or 5-3 or 6-4 majors
5. Inv+ with 4-4 majors
6. GF with 5-5 minors
7. Slam interest with diamonds
8. Weak, intending to pass the response

With invitational hands with 4 hearts we transfer to hearts and bid 2NT (we transfer to hearts and bid 2S with 5+ hearts and invitational values). With GF hands with one four card major we normally use 3C Puppet Stayman.

We use normal Stayman responses. After 2D we use 2S as the relay, because 2H is inv with 5-4 majors. After 2H or 2S the next bid is the relay.

1NT--2C; 2D--2S;
2NT = 4-4 minors or a 4333
3C = 5 clubs
3D+ = 5 diamonds

1NT--2C; 2H--2S;
2NT = 4-4 majors
3C = 4 clubs or 3433
3D = 4 diamonds
3H+ = 5 hearts

1NT--2C; 2S--2NT;
3C = 4 clubs or 4333
3D = 4 diamonds
3H+ = 5 spades

Theres some space left to include some semibalanced hands, for instance I've been thinking about using 2NT and higher rebids by opener as well (to show some hands with 4 spades).

[straube]

1N-2C
.....2D-no major
..........2S-GI 5+ spades
..........2N-GI
..........3m-GI
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-4m4m
...............2N-5 clubs
...............3C-4m333
...............etc-5D

.....2H-4+H, not 4S
..........3C-GF relay
...............3D-5H
....................3H-asking
.........................3S-2533
..............................3N-asking
...................................4C-8
...................................4D-9
...................................etc
.........................3N-3523
.........................4C-3532, 8
.........................etc
...............3H-4C
...............3S-3433
....................3N-asking
.........................4C-8
..........................etc
...............3N-2443
...............4C-3442, 8 (i.e. base 8)
...............4D-3442, 9
...............4H-3442, 10, even hearts (i.e. zoom with 10)

.....2S-4S, not 4H
..........2N-GI
...............3C-asking, like for hearts

.....2N-4S/4H, minimum
..........3C-relays
.....3C-4S/4H, maximum
..........3D-relays

So this does gives up garbage stayman and gets us to the 3-level when responder has the weak club takeout hand. Seems like a lot bad has to happen for the latter to be a problem. Opinions?

This structure is a bit sloppy in collapsing 5422s into 4432s and 6m322s into 5m322s but I pretty much always start to get QP counts at the level of 4C if not sooner. I doubt I can place cards before a small minor slam is reached, but I ought to be able to find some grands now and then.

What do we think?

[newroad]

Hi All,

Interesting discussion. The problems is there are conflicting principles in play.

There is no doubt, all other things being equal, that the Balanced Hand Principle [BHP], as espoused by David Morgan in The Bridge World, has considerable merit. My strong raise and Drury methods were underpinned by it for years.

Also, there is "Game before Slam" [GBS]. This includes the sub consideration of not showing additional shape until invited to by partner - it can only help the oppo.

Additionally, there is a consideration of the merits or otherwise of Garbage Stayman, as 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ is a lot of relay estate to give up to play it (and that's not taking into account the ability to run on above 2NT in one's Stayman response if you know partner is at least invitational and you are MAX). Personally, I've never rated Garbage Stayman as worth the effort.

There may be more that I've missed.

Combining these together anecdotally, I would continue to choose not to play Garbage Stayman. Free is right at game level about BHP, but IMO certainly less so and perhaps not at all at slam level - most relay systems will do perfectly adequately or better at investigating the right slam and keeping out of the wrong ones given a free run with the 1NT opener showing exact shape then controls.

Very roughly, I want to be able to, opposite the 1NT opener

• Sign-off in any suit
  
• Invite in NT with a BAL hand
  
• Invite in NT with a long minor where a fitting honour in partner's hand will give play
  
• I could live without the 6+ major suit invites, but these are mildly desirable
  
• Show shape as close as possible with at least a game force and a possible tight slam if partner is fits well
  
• If we're safely in the slam zone (i.e. perhaps not guaranteed, but 4NT for example likely to be safe) to relay opener's shape exactly

So, I think there is merit in the original question. Playing a relay style, you want your highest shape showing step (without running on) to be 3♥, so that 3♠ or lower can be the control range ask. It therefore distills to what you want to fit into your 1NT opener (being perhaps slightly a Luddite as compared with modern trends, I prefer to keep my 5M's out of it). There's plenty of possible methods to achieve reasonable outcomes in this endeavour. Further, if your 1NT is tight enough and you're prepared to make it INV+, you can play 2♦ as your Stayman-like ask, reserving even more space for other shape showing purposes

As an aside, I have developed a symmetric-like relay method catering for 6m322s, 5M332's, 5422's and all the normal BAL types for a different system (in my case, 1♣ is the opening, and 1NT+ are the relay responses). If applied to 1NT 2♣, most shape types top out at 3NT with a few topping out at 3♠. If anyone is interested, please let me know.

Regards, Newroad

[1eyedjack]

newroad, on 2014-May-05, 06:02, said:

This includes the sub consideration of not showing additional shape until invited to by partner - it can only help the oppo.

I used to worry about this when designing my own 1N response structure, but I hit a snag: If you wait until partner shows interest before patterning out, you don't have enough room to pattern out. Or so I found. Or at the very least you consume a lot more space than if you simply assume that partner has some interest in your shape (which will be the case a proportion of the time, just as, a proportion of the remaining time, the knowledge provided to the opponents provides them no opportunity to capitalise).

"it can only help oppo" is something of an overbid. It CAN help oppo, but it can also help partner.

Anyway a while ago (blimey, was it really nearly a decade ago?) I posted a structure that might be of interest

http://www.bridgebas...dpost__p__37834

Having since played many hundreds of hands against robots I am more sympathetic to the principle of concealment than I was before (even if it means concealment from partner), but I remain conscious of the fact that the robot world and real world are not one and the same.