[WellSpyder]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-23, 10:36, said:

But, other than ranting about it, there is not a whole lot one can do.

In England, where at least some players try to follow the stop bid regulations, I regularly turn at the end of the auction to players whose partners have passed or bid immediately after a stop bid and ask whether they agree that their partner did not wait before calling (my partners all leave out the stop card for at least a few seconds, so these are all before the stop card has been removed). It is just like establishing any other break in tempo really, and I would be happy to do the equivalent of asking "do you agree your partner showed that they weren't thinking during the pause?". I don't think I have yet called a TD at the end of the hand to ask for a ruling about the UI conveyed by a failure to pause before passing, but I have certainly considered it.

[WellSpyder]

Sorry - duplicate. (I see now how easy it is to do this when the system hangs or times out.)

[mycroft]

The first thing we need to find out to determine the "class of players involved" is what E-W's ideas of a third seat opener may be. Monsterpoints are a last ditch guide to how experienced players are - but actual knowledge of the pair, and questions asked of the pair's agreements, are a higher priority guide.

If this is a typical C pair - "we play Drury because partner could have a weak 3rd seat opener; but we'd never open KT862 8 AJ95 Q43 or KT86 87 AJ95 Q43 or KT862 - AJ95 9432 1♠ in third seat - they don't even have 11 points!" - then there is no LA, for that class of player, to double by a hand with two aces and an absolute max. This is *not* making.

If this is a B (C, in that field, if we're stratifying by average) pair like mine, where with two bullets and a 4243, after p-p-1♥-1NT, the TD gets called because I pass without even thinking - and it's right! - in the NABC Swiss, then maybe there's an LA to pass, because now East has said with the hesitation (assuming we are going to take the BIT as agreed) that she *doesn't* have any of those zero-trick hands, KQJ8 7 QT85 9865 or the like, that she could have. (I will admit that in this partnership, I would not pass with the West hand - it's a 12-14 1NT opener. But if I couldn't do that because I was 3=1=4=5 or the like, we have to pass, so there I am, deciding what to do after 4♥-p-p).

BBradley, if this is the game I think it is, then absolutely it's a remarkably strong club game. I was happy to break average (with, to give me credit, a pickup partner) when I played in it.

[aguahombre]

 barmar, on 2014-April-23, 10:26, said:

But since you're supposed to wait about 10 seconds after a skip bid, that initial period is considered "free".

Ideally, if someone habitually fails to obey the skip bid requirement to wait, we should consider any pause to be a tempo break (that's more in keeping with the tempo law). But I don't think that's how the skip bid regulation is generally interpreted.

Oh, I think we both know what we mean and what we agree is one of those tempo breaks which creates UI. We just are using different definitions.

Habitually failing to pause at all after a skip bid is a tempo break (from what is required). deviating from our own normal pace is a tempo break. IMO, in a complicated uncontested auction, a break in tempo by one member of the bidding side should NEVER be considered to convey UI....well maybe with the exception of hesitation Blackwood.

[barmar]

 WellSpyder, on 2014-April-23, 10:49, said:

Sorry - duplicate. (I see now how easy it is to do this when the system hangs or times out.)

Something's going on with the forum today, it's getting lots of "Gateway Timeout" errors when posting. We're looking into it.

But the message always seems to get posted -- the error is apparently happening when it tries to refresh, so don't retry. Just go back to the forum and you'll see the message is there.

[aguahombre]

It's o.k. I could have upvoted Vampyre five times for the same contribution on one thread.

[blackshoe]

 pran, on 2014-April-23, 06:47, said:

The Norwegian STOP regulation stipulates that it is the responsibility of the skip bidder to time the duration of the STOP periode (with the exception that if he indicates end of the STOP period before ten seconds have elapsed the period shall be extended for a total duration not less than ten seconds).

I have heard that this is different in ACBL?

It is - it is the responsibility of the LHO of the skip bidder to maintain proper tempo (including the mandated delay). In fact, it is his responsibility to do that whether the stop card is used or not. So it is not the case, here, that a player who fails to use the stop card forfeits any rights.

[Bad_Wolf]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-23, 06:29, said:

I cannot imagine any player of any class passing out 4♥. If anything, the hesitation suggests further action other than double.

I don't know. I play against bad players every week and they never double me after these sorts of auctions unless they have a rare good trump holding, and not often even then. I keep being surprised when it goes float.

[Bbradley62]

Unfortunately, OP doesn't really tell us how weak or strong EW are. All we know is that both of them have under 750 ACBL masterpoints; there's a lot of variation there.

[pran]

 barmar, on 2014-April-23, 09:08, said:

It is. In ACBL, you must hesitate 10 seconds after a skip bid regardless of whether your RHO used the STOP card.

Yes,
and I have always wondered why ACBL, instead of allowing LHO to concentrate on the call he shall select, apparently require that he must divert some significant amount of his attention to measuring out the required 10 Seconds?


What do they consider is the (main) purpose of this delay? It is 10 Seconds long - or giving LHO time to think withoout creating UI?

[ArtK78]

 pran, on 2014-April-24, 01:33, said:

Yes, and I have always wondered why ACBL, instead of allowing LHO to concentrate on the call he shall select, apparently require that he must divert some significant amount of his attention to measuring out the required 10 Seconds?

What do they consider is the (main) purpose of this delay? It is 10 Seconds long - or giving LHO time to think withoout creating UI?

It is fairly clear why the ACBL requires that there be a mandatory 10 second pause after a skip bid - to prevent UI from being passed by a quick action, and to give the player a chance to think over a skip bid without passing UI.

Most players can come up with their action in reasonable comfort given 10 seconds to think about it. But partner should not know that your action is so clear that it required no thought.

[blackshoe]

That the ACBL requires the LHO of the skip bidder to be responsible for the length of the required pause is IMO unfortunate, but it's the regulation we have. As to why they did it this way, I have no idea.

[barmar]

 pran, on 2014-April-24, 01:33, said:

Yes,
and I have always wondered why ACBL, instead of allowing LHO to concentrate on the call he shall select, apparently require that he must divert some significant amount of his attention to measuring out the required 10 Seconds?

If he actually has something difficult to think about, he doesn't need to measure the time -- the expectation is that he'll use at least 10 seconds for this. The idea of the regulation is that you should pretend to think for the same length of time even when you don't have something to think about, so partner can't tell the difference.

The simplistic assumption behind this is that jump bids are likely to be more surprising than other bids, and if you don't react by having to think it gives away too much UI. In reality, there are a number of other bids that probably should warrant similar treatment, e.g. cue bids, some NT bids, probably any interference in the opponents' game forcing auction.

[aguahombre]

 blackshoe, on 2014-April-24, 08:25, said:

That the ACBL requires the LHO of the skip bidder to be responsible for the length of the required pause is IMO unfortunate, but it's the regulation we have. As to why they did it this way, I have no idea.

I don't believe the situation is any better where the skip-bidder controls the length of mandatory pause. I contend that the specific 10 seconds thing is the distraction, and I think that is Pran's issue as well. There can be UI conveyed when an opponent has completed his thought process and then turns his attention to the bidder's stop card.

What we really want is for there to be a noticeable delay, longer than normal for that opponent, between the skip bid and the next call. When that happens, we should be content whether it is seven seconds or 13.15 seconds, and get on with our lives.

[mycroft]

If it's the skip bidder that mandates the pause, then instead of the "1..2..3.." obvious no thought, there is the "stare at the STOP card" no thought. Also, 90% of players can't judge 10 seconds, so they leave the stop card out for the requisite 4 or 5, then call the TD for hesitation if the call doesn't come out immediately after the STOP card is put away.

Yes, it's unfortunate, because when I *do* think, it's hard to judge how long I spent thinking and how much extra time I need to pause to be consistent. But having to worry about how long RHO thinks I should be "thinking" would be worse. But I guess I'd get used to it.

[ArtK78]

Players (and posters) seem to dwell on the 10 second aspect of the rule. The rule is really "about 10 seconds," and it should not be noticeable that the LHO of the skipbidder is counting off the time. 10 seconds just means a reasonable delay so as to give the next player an opportunity to think if he or she needs it and to not give away the fact that there is no reason to think if there is none.

[Vampyr]

 mycroft, on 2014-April-24, 09:33, said:

If it's the skip bidder that mandates the pause, then instead of the "1..2..3.." obvious no thought, there is the "stare at the STOP card" no thought. Also, 90% of players can't judge 10 seconds, so they leave the stop card out for the requisite 4 or 5, then call the TD for hesitation if the call doesn't come out immediately after the STOP card is put away.

If you sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, you will hit 10 seconds when you finish the word "valentine". Unfortunately, poor or average players will often bid while you are still holding out the stop card.

[ArtK78]

 Vampyr, on 2014-April-24, 11:24, said:

If you sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, you will hit 10 seconds when you finish the word "valentine". Unfortunately, poor or average players will often bid while you are still holding out the stop card.

Can't do that. It reminds me of how close I am getting to 64.

[mycroft]

 Vampyr, on 2014-April-24, 11:24, said:

If you sing "When I'm 64" to yourself, you will hit 10 seconds when you finish the word "valentine". Unfortunately, poor or average players will often bid while you are still holding out the stop card.

That's okay, following the ACBL policy (stop card, make bid, put stop card away), poor or average players will often bid while I am still holding out the stop card.

But my problem is if Ms. Beatle *doesn't* sing, and puts it away at 5 seconds, and I think for 8, she will swear up and down that she held for 10 seconds and it took EVEN LONGER for me to bid. I don't trust poor or average players to get that timing right, given their inability to do that when they're controlling *their* auto-pass pause.

[pran]

Am I the only person who has more important things to consider after a skip bid by my RHO than to also be responsible for seeing to it that the pause becomes approximately 10 Seconds?

My assertion is that a player who can comfortably use his brain to (approximately) measure out the required time really has no need for that time to select which call he will make!