[rbforster]

straube, on 2013-September-30, 21:51, said:

I kind of suspect that 1C-1D, 1M natural and forcing is the right continuation after 1D 0-7.

Forcing, yes. Natural. is up for debate

Quote

You might ask RobF about his continuations. His are complicated by the fact that his 1D response is 0-7 or GF hearts. I think he uses...

1C-1D
.....1H-16-18 bal OR various
.....1S-2-suiters
.....1N-19-21 or so bal
.....2C-like a strong artificial 2C

There are some subtleties but that's about right. 1H is min 1-suited or balanced, although its forcing so there are some strong heart hands in there too that jump later. 1S is min 2 suiter including a major with artificial continuations. our 1H-1S confirms 0-7 and is not a double negative, as 1D could have GF heart hands that transfer and then relay over 1H with 1N+ instead of 1S.

[Shugart23]

I think that illustrates my point. Think about how often responder will have 6+ clubs and 0-1 queen at the point of 1C-1D, 1H. Not often and not very important either. Plus this sequence doesn't lead to anything.

Right, with us, the 1D responder almost always bids 1S after bidding has gone 1C-1D-1H- ?.

1C-1D 16+, very bad or very good hand
1H-2C artficial relay, very good hand with both majors

I'm not following this...1H by Opener is natural or a waiting bid, and then the 2C is showing 5-7 with both majors by the responder in your methods ?

[straube]

Shugart23, on 2013-October-01, 12:27, said:

I think that illustrates my point. Think about how often responder will have 6+ clubs and 0-1 queen at the point of 1C-1D, 1H. Not often and not very important either. Plus this sequence doesn't lead to anything.

Right, with us, the 1D responder almost always bids 1S after bidding has gone 1C-1D-1H- ?.

1C-1D 16+, very bad or very good hand
1H-2C artficial relay, very good hand with both majors

I'm not following this...1H by Opener is natural or a waiting bid, and then the 2C is showing 5-7 with both majors by the responder in your methods ?

Yes, we use IMPrecision responses so 1C-1D is roughly 0-4 hcps or 11+ hcps with any shape. After this, we deviate from IMPrecision and 1C-1D, 1H is (usually) balanced but can be certain other shapes. So

1C-1D,
.....1H-1S (0-4 or 11+ bal)
........1N (11+ unbal with spades but not hearts)
........2C (11+ unbal with majors)
........2D (11+ unbal with both minors)
........etc (11+ other)

I wasn't recommending this (doesn't work for 1D 0-7) but I think what we do is a good example of how a system ought to "branch".

My other example (Meckwell) would be a better fit for you. They also branch.

1C-1D
.....1H-natural, possible canape
..........1S-0-7 with 4+S
..........1N-0-4 without 4H or 4S, forcing
..........2C-6-7 without 4S or 2H
...............2D-stuck
....................2H-2 hearts
..........2D-6-7 with 3+ hearts
...............2H-not interested
....................2S-and 4S
..........2H-0-4 with 4+ hearts
..........2S-6-7 with 5S and 3H
..........2N-? Don't know what they do but I like this as 6-7 and 4+H
..........3m-6-7 and 3H/6m
.....1S-natural, possible canape
..........1N-0-4, other, forcing
..........2C-6-7, not 3S
...............2D-stuck
....................2H-5+ hearts
....................2S-2 spades
..........2D-6-7, 3S
..........2H-6-7, 3S and 5H
..........2S-0-4, 4+S
..........2N-can't remember, like 4+S and 6-7
..........3m-6-7, 3S and 6+m
..........3H-6-7, 3S and 6+H
.....1N-17-19
.....2m-5m, no 4M
.....2H-forces 2S
..........2S-forced
...............2N-GF bal
...............etc-natural, forcing? can't remember
.....2S-almost GF with 3-suited (4441s and 5m4m31s)
..........2N-asking
..........3C-nf, preference
..........3D-nf, preference
.....2N-22-23 bal
.....3m-invitational?
.....3M-can't remember

If you like this, maybe someone can fill in the gaps.

[keylime]

Larry and I played a strong diamond for the first time last week, and we have 1♥ as either 0-4 or 8+ GF (excluding certain hand types). It might help accuracy to have some sort of semipositive response into your schedule.

[Shugart23]

keylime, on 2013-October-01, 22:57, said:

Larry and I played a strong diamond for the first time last week, and we have 1♥ as either 0-4 or 8+ GF (excluding certain hand types). It might help accuracy to have some sort of semipositive response into your schedule.

I'm not sure I'm ready to revamp everything we do. For us, after 1C, almost any bid partner makes besides 1D is a game force...eg 1C-1H shows 5+ Spades, 8+ HCP whereupon asking bids commence immediately. Our one exception is 1C-2S (by an unpassed hand) which shows 8-11 HCP balanced where bidding occassionally stops at 2NT when both hands are at a minimum and balanced.

With 5-7 HCP, I suppose our system is more traditional where the second bid by the 1D bidder shows the 5-7 (semi-positive?) count.
eg 1C-1D -1S (showing 16-21, natural) - 2C (showing 5-7 HCP and 5+ Clubs)

If we were to use 1D to show one of two types of hands (weak or strong), aren't a lot of bids being used up to show the middle bid, and is that an advantage over what I do now ? e. 1C-1H or 1C-1S or 1C-1NT , etc...... ?

I have to confess I have never seen system notes where 1D is used in this fashion. It's intriguing. Is this what IMPrecision does , and if so, is there a source document for me to study ?

[Shugart23]

straube, on 2013-October-01, 13:49, said:

Yes, we use IMPrecision responses so 1C-1D is roughly 0-4 hcps or 11+ hcps with any shape. After this, we deviate from IMPrecision and 1C-1D, 1H is (usually) balanced but can be certain other shapes. So

1C-1D,
.....1H-1S (0-4 or 11+ bal)
........1N (11+ unbal with spades but not hearts)
........2C (11+ unbal with majors)
........2D (11+ unbal with both minors)
........etc (11+ other)

I wasn't recommending this (doesn't work for 1D 0-7) but I think what we do is a good example of how a system ought to "branch".

My other example (Meckwell) would be a better fit for you. They also branch.



1C-1D
.....1H-natural, possible canape
..........1S-0-7 with 4+S
..........1N-0-4 without 4H or 4S, forcing
..........2C-6-7 without 4S or 2H
...............2D-stuck
....................2H-2 hearts
..........2D-6-7 with 3+ hearts
...............2H-not interested
....................2S-and 4S
..........2H-0-4 with 4+ hearts
..........2S-6-7 with 5S and 3H
..........2N-? Don't know what they do but I like this as 6-7 and 4+H
..........3m-6-7 and 3H/6m
.....1S-natural, possible canape
..........1N-0-4, other, forcing
..........2C-6-7, not 3S
...............2D-stuck
....................2H-5+ hearts
....................2S-2 spades
..........2D-6-7, 3S
..........2H-6-7, 3S and 5H
..........2S-0-4, 4+S
..........2N-can't remember, like 4+S and 6-7
..........3m-6-7, 3S and 6+m
..........3H-6-7, 3S and 6+H
.....1N-17-19
.....2m-5m, no 4M
.....2H-forces 2S
..........2S-forced
...............2N-GF bal
...............etc-natural, forcing? can't remember
.....2S-almost GF with 3-suited (4441s and 5m4m31s)
..........2N-asking
..........3C-nf, preference
..........3D-nf, preference
.....2N-22-23 bal
.....3m-invitational?
.....3M-can't remember

If you like this, maybe someone can fill in the gaps.

thanks, I do like this as some of it might fit in nicely with what we do now

[Kungsgeten]

I've used the following structure, where 1H is strong and 1S may be canapé (even with longer hearts). I think the 1C-1D; 1S sequences turn out pretty good, so if you can make it work with opener still being unlimited, then I guess everything is fine

1C-1D;
1H = 20+
1S = 16-19, any unbalanced with 4+ spades (may be balanced with good 5 spades), except if at least 5-5 spades and another
..1NT = Relay
....2C = 5+ spades
......2D = Asking for side suit, forcing and 5--7
........2H = 4 hearts
........2S = 6 spades
........2N = 5332
........3m = 4 card minor
....2D = 5+ diamonds, 4 spades
....2H = 5+ hearts, 4 spades
....2S = 5+ clubs, 4 spades
..2X = 6-card suit, 5--7
--2S = 4 card support, 3--7
1N = 17-19
2C = 5+ clubs, denies 4 spades, 16-19
..2D = Invitational relay
....2H = 4 diamonds
....2S = 4 hearts
....2N = 6+ clubs, minimum
....3C = 6+ clubs, extras
..2M = Invitational with 5+ major
2D = 5+ diamonds, denies 4 spades, 16-19
..2H = Invitational relay
....2S = 4 clubs
....2N = 4 hearts
....3C = 6+ diamonds, minimum
....3D = 6+ diamonds, extras
..2S = Invitaitonal with 5+ spades
..2N = Invitational with 5+ hearts
2H = 5+ hearts, denies 4 spades, 16-19
2S = 5+ spades and 5+ minor, 16--19
2N = 5-5 majors, 16--19

[Shugart23]

thank you for taking the time to write this out