[blackshoe]

Shugart23, on 2013-August-10, 05:03, said:

so last night RHO opens 1NT and I overcall 2H....LHO doubles meaning stolen bid, transfer to Spades, but RHO doesn't realize this. The bid comes around to him and he thinks for a bit , probably trying to decide if the double is penalty, and finally bids 3D..LHO bids 3S and RHO realizing that he made a mistake, bid 4S.....

I don't think there was any UI here.....Perhaps LHO should have considered 3D as a super-accept and bid 4S directly, but I don't know.....I didn't feel there was damage

Certainly there's UI in this situation. Perhaps you mean that you don't think anyone took advantage of UI, but that's a different issue.

If there was no damage then there's no score adjustment, but if anyone "took advantage" of UI in getting to game, there was damage.

[Shugart23]

Thanks Blackshoe; you are wealth of information. Let me ask you this....If the partnership agreement was that 3D was a super accept (even though the 3D bidder made a mistake), and then the 3S bid is a decline of the invite then perhaps the 4S bidder was obligated to pass vs realizing his mistake and bidding game ? So perhaps I was damaged ? What would you say ?

[blackshoe]

I would say I need to know the outcome of the play.

If you were damaged, for example if 4♠ makes, then I would adjust the score, probably to 3♠+1.

[Zelandakh]

Shugart23, on 2013-August-10, 12:05, said:

If the partnership agreement was that 3D was a super accept

There is another possibility here too. After a super-accept, many pairs play that 3♥ is a re-transfer to spades (ie puppet to 3♠). Then a direct 3♠ either does not exist, is invitational, or is a slam try according to agreement. The TD needs to establish what agreements are in place in cases such as this to work out what LAs might exist.

[Shugart23]

I was thinking about this example over the weekend and actually ended up confusing myself....Where exactly was the UI ? There was no discussion/explanation of any of the bids...the 3D bidder realized he made a mistake in his bid (when partner went to 3S) but it wasn't because of anything anyone said...When he went to 4S, he took a chance that partner had a complete bust and was trying to pass out at 2S...Yes, partners 3S woke him up, and all at the table figured it out right away.....but what was unauthorized ? Thanks if someone can try and explain.

[blackshoe]

RHO's BIT before bidding 3♦ conveys the extraneous information that RHO isn't sure what call to make (or perhaps isn't sure whether to alert LHO's double, but in that case the alert procedure requires him to err on the side of caution and alert it, so why didn't he?). That extraneous information could suggest that RHO wants to play in diamonds, or thinks LHO has diamonds (and might convey no information about RHO's spades) so it's unauthorized.

[Shugart23]

blackshoe, on 2013-August-12, 08:53, said:

RHO's BIT before bidding 3♦ conveys the extraneous information that RHO isn't sure what call to make (or perhaps isn't sure whether to alert LHO's double, but in that case the alert procedure requires him to err on the side of caution and alert it, so why didn't he?). That extraneous information could suggest that RHO wants to play in diamonds, or thinks LHO has diamonds (and might convey no information about RHO's spades) so it's unauthorized.

This is my last post on this topic; promise !

SO who is using the UI ? LHO had no interest in Diamonds and bid 3S naturally. RHO isnt receiving any UI and is only promted that he made a mistake from listening to the bidding and took a (successful) flyer at 4S.

Are you saying that the unalerted 3D bid should have put limitations on LHO's next bid? Or is LHO's 3S bid putting limitation on RHO ?

[blackshoe]

RHO provided the UI to LHO, so LHO is the only one who could use it illegally.

The UI could suggest that RHO, who bid 3♦, doesn't have a lot of diamonds (he thinks he's supporting LHO), so it suggests that LHO not pass 3♦, but instead rebid his own suit (which RHO clearly isn't aware LHO has).

It's not enough to bid what you "were always going to bid", you have to make the extra effort not to bid whatever is suggested you bid - even if that is "what you were always going to bid".