[ahydra]

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MPs, both vul. No gadgets available except UCB.

ahydra

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2013-August-08, 16:06, said:

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MPs, both vul. No gadgets available except UCB.

ahydra

Don't understand why I wouldn't pass.

I have the worst imaginable heart holding and RHO's failure to raise hearts makes it even worse. I have inadequate spade support to raise, especially with that heart holding. I lack any interest in playing in a minor, now that RHO has announced, ostensibly, both minors and a hand that will often resemble mine, but 3=2 in majors.

In short: this hands screams pass. And I'd red...so going 2 beat in an unhappy 2 level contract will be close to a zero.

[paulg]

Pass. Do I have West's hand?

[MrAce]

I will pass at this point.

[quiddity]

mikeh, on 2013-August-08, 16:56, said:

Don't understand why I wouldn't pass.

I have the worst imaginable heart holding and RHO's failure to raise hearts makes it even worse. I have inadequate spade support to raise, especially with that heart holding. I lack any interest in playing in a minor, now that RHO has announced, ostensibly, both minors and a hand that will often resemble mine, but 3=2 in majors.

In short: this hands screams pass. And I'd red...so going 2 beat in an unhappy 2 level contract will be close to a zero.

Assuming redouble shows values and spade tolerance, is it so bad to redouble? How much more would you need to do so?
I imagine there are auctions where it might be useful for partner to know that he isn't alone.

[MrAce]

quiddity, on 2013-August-08, 17:04, said:

Assuming redouble shows values and spade tolerance, is it so bad to redouble? How much more would you need to do so?
I can certainly imagine auctions where it might be useful for partner to know that he isn't alone.

Kinda borderline imo, but xx would require a little more with xx ♠. To me it starts from 10, 9 could be ok if hand has some positive features other than its hcp value.

I.e make it Hx ♠ and this hand would be more valuable (or fill this hand with very good spots)

[MrAce]

Deleted double post

[Cyberyeti]

I would redouble, but our overcalls are sounder than most, a pass for most people.

[mikeh]

quiddity, on 2013-August-08, 17:04, said:

Assuming redouble shows values and spade tolerance, is it so bad to redouble? How much more would you need to do so?
I imagine there are auctions where it might be useful for partner to know that he isn't alone.

Many people play that redouble is conventional, showing Hx and some values elsewhere, where H is Q or higher. The objective is to help partner with his lead from, say, KJxxx. If you redouble, he can lead the suit and if you don't, he avoids what is often a tempo and/or trick losing lead.

That isn't standard. However, I do think that it is standard that the redouble, while usually denying primary support, encourages partner to bid on with decent values and a chunky 5 card suit. Opinions may vary, but this isn't a dummy I want to put down in a 5-2 fit, chunky suit or not, at the 2-level.

[gwnn]

Redobló. I'm gonna help partner. I have a (near-) maximum with a doubleton spade, I show him a maximum with a doubleton spade (which is what I think is standard). Colour me unimpressed by the dangers of this xx on the 1-level. I know about xxx in hearts being bad, but I still have a maximum with a doubleton spade.

I wouldn't redouble of course if I were playing Rosenkrantz doubles but that's why I'm not playing Rosenkrantz redoubles.

[ahydra]

Thanks all. You see, I thought XX was standard here as well. Next thing I know I'm writing down -1000 after it gets passed out (partner probably should have held it to one down, but can't make it). Partner had ♠KQJxx ♥Q10x ♦QJx ♣xx and everything was wrong: hearts 5-2 so they got a ruff straight away in the short trump hand, A1098 of trumps with East, diamonds 5-1.

I think mikeh is right when he says this hand is pretty bad. 9 working points, yes, but no intermediates, no shape. In particular the xxx hearts are asking for trouble, as was the case. I've never had anyone pass out the redouble in this auction before (surely it's a huge risk, you might well go for 1120) - but I think I'll strengthen up this redouble a bit from now on

ahydra

[Fluffy]

bravo for your opponents, they have los huevos bien puestos.

[billw55]

Holding the minors over an op who holds the minors, I am happy defending.

For me, not strong enough for a redouble opposite a simple overcall.

[gwnn]

Colour me impressed nice hand.

[ArtK78]

I had not looked at this topic prior to now. It would not have occurred to me to do anything other than pass.

To me, this hand is about a King short of a redouble (in other words, a hand that I might have opened). What is the redouble intended to accomplish? If it shows values, yes, I have some values. I have a pretty good hand for a passed hand. But is my hand remarkable? I don't think so. Does the redouble show that I am willing to defend anything that the opponents run to? I don't have a great deal of defense against hearts. Does the redouble mean that partner is free to bid more if the opponents compete? My spade support is nothing to be real proud of. In short, I don't see what you are trying to tell partner with the redouble (unless I am just trying to convey a warm and fuzzy feeling about the hand).

It would also not occur to me that 1♠xx would become the final contract. But apparently your opponents have unusual agreements about the meaning of the pass over the redouble at the one level or perhaps your RHO made a highly unusual negative double

[quiddity]

ArtK78, on 2013-August-09, 09:45, said:

I had not looked at this topic prior to now. It would not have occurred to me to do anything other than pass.

To me, this hand is about a King short of a redouble (in other words, a hand that I might have opened). What is the redouble intended to accomplish? If it shows values, yes, I have some values. I have a pretty good hand for a passed hand. But is my hand remarkable? I don't think so. Does the redouble show that I am willing to defend anything that the opponents run to? I don't have a great deal of defense against hearts. Does the redouble mean that partner is free to bid more if the opponents compete? My spade support is nothing to be real proud of. In short, I don't see what you are trying to tell partner with the redouble (unless I am just trying to convey a warm and fuzzy feeling about the hand).

It would also not occur to me that 1♠xx would become the final contract. But apparently your opponents have unusual agreements about the meaning of the pass over the redouble at the one level or perhaps your RHO made a highly unusual negative double

I think the redouble is intended to show (at a relatively safe level) that we have sufficient values to think this might be our hand. Partner will usually have marginal values when we have something in 4th position in this auction - knowing that he's not alone he will feel more secure about competing with a shapely minimum. I don't agree that the redouble is supposed to encourage him to break the law, but if he has a shaky 6-card suit then by all means I want him to get back in there. That way I don't have to guess whether to balance or not if 2♥ comes back to me; I've said my piece, I'm done.

If you wait for an opening hand for the redouble here you'll be waiting a long time. Partner has a vulnerable overcall and I have 9-10; that means we have half the deck and I want to say something about it so we don't get robbed. There are some side benefits too, like partner being able to crack them if they over-compete because he knows that we have some real defense.

[ArtK78]

quiddity, on 2013-August-09, 10:47, said:

If you wait for an opening hand for the redouble here you'll be waiting a long time.

You are right about that. I think the redouble here, if not conventional, should be extremely rare.

[mycroft]

Partner has a vulnerable overcall - I don't think the hand he actually had was a minimum! And it looks like our choices even with that are -1000, -800, -760 or, if we're lucky, -380, if I redouble. And that's if they don't send our double back.

My partners are allowed to overcall - especially spades - with a suit they want led, even at the 1 level. I don't see any reason to punish him for it. If he happens to have lots more, we're getting a huge result if we play it, and if they pull, partner has a call and is allowed to look at his hand.

Playing EHAA overcalls, where partner basically promises a Goren opener for 1♠ - the hand actually at the table is nowhere near enough for 1♠ - okay, then I'll send it back. But setting a force when partner could have a KQJxxx and a K, or AQTxx and a lead-director? No thanks.

[gwnn]

xx does not set up a force for me. That would be absurd IMO.

[mikeh]

quiddity, on 2013-August-09, 10:47, said:

I think the redouble is intended to show (at a relatively safe level) that we have sufficient values to think this might be our hand. Partner will usually have marginal values when we have something in 4th position in this auction - knowing that he's not alone he will feel more secure about competing with a shapely minimum. I don't agree that the redouble is supposed to encourage him to break the law, but if he has a shaky 6-card suit then by all means I want him to get back in there. That way I don't have to guess whether to balance or not if 2♥ comes back to me; I've said my piece, I'm done.

If you wait for an opening hand for the redouble here you'll be waiting a long time. Partner has a vulnerable overcall and I have 9-10; that means we have half the deck and I want to say something about it so we don't get robbed. There are some side benefits too, like partner being able to crack them if they over-compete because he knows that we have some real defense.

I don't argue with your premise, nor with your conclusion that 'If you wait for an opening hand....you'll be waiting a long time'.

Where I think the problem lies is in assuming that there is something wrong about having the redouble available only on rare hands.

To take it to the absurd, I use an opening bid of 7N to mean I expect to take 13 tricks. I wish the bid came up more often, but that doesn't mean I'm going to start using it on balanced 24 counts so as to increase the frequency of use!

Why on earth would we think that we are 'getting robbed' on this hand? Ever?

We hold no fit. We have the death holding in opener's suit. We have no long suit of our own, and our RHO has announced that he has length and strength (of at least modest proportions) in the minors.

The opps are red, so while 3rd seat may be light, we can virtually rule out any outright psyching.

I think a redouble here, absent a conventional meaning, should show a hand very close to opening values. So it will be rare. So what?