[Cyberyeti]

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 00:24, said:

A request to the EBU players:
How about this for a Garbage Only Multi continuation sequence? Can it work? What must I change?
This suggestion used the 2D-4C sequence as the anchor around which the rest has been devised, where the 4C bid is asking opener to transfer into whichever major he has. Here’s the deal –
2D-Pass = (The hand belongs to the opponents, I got crap but D)
2D-2H = Pass/correct, the hand belongs to the opponents (Before you reject this option outright, remember that your teammates in the closed room will have the strong hand; the board may still turn out to be flat)
2D-2S = I have game values if we can find a fit but can support only 1 major, not necessarily S. Tell me more about your hand. The continuation bidding would go like this –
.........2NT = My suit is H not S to keep you as the declarer
…………3C = We have a fit, tell me how good/bad your opening was
……………3D = Bad, 3-5 HCP, not necessarily in H (responder will signoff in 3H)
……………4D = Good, 6-8 HCP, mostly in the H suit (responder will signoff in 4H)
…………3H = To play, no fit
…….3C = My suit is S, bad Multi, 3-5 HCP
…….3D = My suit is S, good Multi, 6-8 HCP, mostly in the S suit
…….(Depending on the degree of fit and the response, responder signs off in 3S or 4S)
2D-2NT = Lebensohl (responder has a single suited hand and wants to play in his suit)
2D-3C = Game values, support for both majors, transfer into your suit at the appropriate level please
…….3D = My suit is H, bad Multi, 3-5 HCP
…….3H = My suit is S, bad Multi, 3-5 HCP
…….4D = My suit is H, good Multi, 6-8 HCP
…….4H = My suit is S, good Multi, 6-8 HCP
2D-3D = D pre-empt, the hand belongs to the opponents, let them figure out which major suit fit they have

Because this is the Garbage Multi, I never went past 3D for the continuation bidding. I’m inviting the other forum posters to extend/complete/adjust/modify this sequence.

2♦-2♥ can also contain hands where you want to play 2♥ where partner has hearts, but raise if he has spades

I think your 2N on frequency grounds is sub par (is it a good hand or a bad hand anyway) and you'll do better using it as your enquiry.

[32519]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-24, 02:29, said:

2♦-2♥ can also contain hands where you want to play 2♥ where partner has hearts, but raise if he has spades

If I wanted to play in ♥, would a direct 3♥ response work i.e. bypassing Lebensohl and therefore more pre-emptive? Lebensohl and then bidding ♥ (or ♠ with the appropriate hand) could possibly show a stronger hand inviting game if opener is max (6-8 and 2-card support? Would that be an improvement?

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-24, 02:29, said:

I think your 2N on frequency grounds is sub par (is it a good hand or a bad hand anyway) and you'll do better using it as your enquiry.

See reply above. 2NT as Lebensohl still allows me to show ♣ without the bid being misunderstood.

Thanks for something positive

[Free]

I don't see the point of Lebensohl. If you have a minor you want to play in, either pass or bid 3m NF. If it's a Major, just bid it twice. That frees up 2NT for strong hands instead of 3♣. You can even use 3♦ as a general invite for both Majors and pass with the ♦ hands.

My preferred structure therefor is:
pass = random, may have ♦, may be weak, don't want to share any information
2M = P/C, usually paradox (possibly PRE or INV in OM, but may be natural with own suit planning to rebid 3M)
2NT = GF relay
3♣ = nat NF
3♦ = INV for both Majors
3M = P/C
3NT = signoff
4♣ = transfer your M
4♦ = bid your M
4M = signoff, no matter what

After 2NT relay, you can do all sorts of things. Both shape and strength are quite important imo.

This structure focusses a lot on signoffs and invites ('game before slam'), but has the opportunity to investigate slam as well. The 'quick in quick out' principle is also incorporated as much as possible.

[the hog]

Numeric one, I suggest you stick to Buller.

[32519]

We are talking about Garbage Multi here. So let us compare my 2S bid with your 2NT bid:
1. I am saving a step
2. Your 2NT is effectively showing slam interest. I am not sure how realistic this is for a Garbage Multi? For a normal Multi which allows up to 10 HCP, absolutely! Keep the door open for slam. But for a hand which tops off at 8 and whose primary purpose is destructive? Bear in mind that the current trend is towards “destructive.”
3. Your GF hands can go via 4C or 4D. Not sure I want to do this opposite a 3-5 HCP hand?
4. Your invite hands go via 2D-3D. My structure has no invite. It asks for hand strength/suit quality and then signs off in 3M or 4M. Additionally, with your invite hands, the stronger hand is exposed on the table.
5. The 2M p/c paradox takes you to level 3 anyway when you reply 2S and opener has H. Again the stronger hand is exposed on the table. My 2S structure allows me to ascertain openers strength and suit along the way. It also keeps the stronger hand as declarer.

[manudude03]

Your 2S response makes no sense at all. You are basically forcing to the 3 level on what could be a misfit.

Also:

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 04:51, said:

3. Your GF hands can go via 4C or 4D. Not sure I want to do this opposite a 3-5 HCP hand?

I think you misunderstood it, it's just saying we're playing the hand in game, who cares whether the promised range is 0-1 or 24-25? I'm sure all the slam interest hands are going through 2NT anyway.

[Cyberyeti]

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 03:27, said:

If I wanted to play in ♥, would a direct 3♥ response work i.e. bypassing Lebensohl and therefore more pre-emptive? Lebensohl and then bidding ♥ (or ♠ with the appropriate hand) could possibly show a stronger hand inviting game if opener is max (6-8 and 2-card support? Would that be an improvement?

Lebensohl is really not useful here. Yes you can have a hand where you want to play 3♣ rather than partner's major, but you can always pull this after 2M gets doubled. 3♣ either forcing or an ask about the other major is more useful.

I was talking about hands like KJxxx, A, KJxx, Axx where if partner has hearts 2♥ is plenty, but if partner has spades then game is possible.

[Free]

Sigh...
- Bidding theory suggests to investigate a decent spot to play, and with stronger hands investigate game before slam. Finding a decent spot quickly requires you to have both 2M bids available as P/C because it puts 4th seat under pressure. It also gives you the opportunity to find distributional games when partner holds the Major you're holding too. Your invitational hands all start with 2NT, and all you get a silly and useless HCP response. Distributional games can't even be investigated this way.
- When playing a destructive method, try to find a decent spot as quickly as possible and don't give opps any extra opportunities to penalize you. 2♦-2NT as some sort of Lebensohl gives opps an extra round of bidding space, cuebids, penalty doubles,... I'd rather bid 2♦-3♣ to play rather than 2♦-2NT-3♣-pass. And when NV, I'd probably pass more often that I'd try to play in my own suit anyway.
- What's all this fuzz about wrongsiding? It's not like rightsiding is my first priority.

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 04:51, said:

We are talking about Garbage Multi here. So let us compare my 2S bid with your 2NT bid:
1. I am saving a step

Yeah, and you waste it on showing HCP.

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 04:51, said:

2. Your 2NT is effectively showing slam interest. I am not sure how realistic this is for a Garbage Multi? For a normal Multi which allows up to 10 HCP, absolutely! Keep the door open for slam. But for a hand which tops off at 8 and whose primary purpose is destructive? Bear in mind that the current trend is towards “destructive.”

I prefer a single bid for slam purposes and several bids for game investigation, rather than one bid to cover it all and many bids that almost never occur to signoff.

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 04:51, said:

3. Your GF hands can go via 4C or 4D. Not sure I want to do this opposite a 3-5 HCP hand?

GF hands can also decide to start with 2NT. 4♣ and 4♦ can also be used for preemptive purposes, and since we're talking about a Garbage Multi this can come in handy.

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 04:51, said:

4. Your invite hands go via 2D-3D. My structure has no invite. It asks for hand strength/suit quality and then signs off in 3M or 4M. Additionally, with your invite hands, the stronger hand is exposed on the table.

So you say. Who said opener should bid 4M with a maximum?

 32519, on 2013-July-24, 04:51, said:

5. The 2M p/c paradox takes you to level 3 anyway when you reply 2S and opener has H. Again the stronger hand is exposed on the table. My 2S structure allows me to ascertain openers strength and suit along the way. It also keeps the stronger hand as declarer.

So you say. Who said opener should bid 3♥ after 2♦-2♠ when holding ♥, wasting an entire level instead of investingating a distributional game?


Anyway, as usual you're clearly convinced of something, and as usual it doesn't matter what arguments other people bring to the discussion.
Is your method playable? Yes, every method is playable.
Is it any good? Nope, as usual...

[helene_t]

Playing garbage multi with Ant590 at the blackpool congress a couple of years ago, a hand came up where we played in a 5-1 hearts fit while a better (I think 6-2) fit in spades was available. Ant suggested that maybe it would be better to play 2♠ as to play instead of p/c. My guess would be that p/c has higher EV in the long run but I might be wrong.

[hrothgar]

 Free, on 2013-July-24, 06:15, said:

When playing a destructive method, try to find a decent spot as quickly as possible and don't give opps any extra opportunities to penalize you.

I strongly agree with Free on this one (other than quibbling about the use of the word "destructive")

When I developed the response structure over my Frelling Two Bids, my primary goals were to

1. Make sure that we could scramble to an adequate contract
2. Accurately invite games
3. Avoiding situations where the opponents were well positioned for penalty doubles

Slam exploration was at the very bottom of the list...