[Trinidad]

I am not sure whether this is the right forum to discuss this, but I know that the forum where this discussion started is not the right place .

The following post showed up in a thread that was started by a new forum member in the Expert forum and later moved by a mod to the I/A forum. (Mgoetze was the first to reply to a post on the meaning of double in the sequence: 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♥; Dbl.)

 straube, on 2013-January-31, 14:11, said:

 mgoetze, on 2013-January-31, 12:56, said:

Welcome to the forums, MarilynLi. Unfortunately, you seem to have found the wrong subforum. This post is much more suitable for the "Intermediate/Advanced" forum or the "Natural Bidding Discussion" forum. Note that posting in these forums does NOT mean you won't get answers from experts. On the contrary, they will be much more willing to give you helpful, detailed explanations there.

(My thought, by the way, is that double should show 2 spades and some diamonds.)

Mgoetze, do you claim to be an expert? What's your role here? The moderator appears to be Inquiry, but you've set yourself up as someone who "welcomes" or has some sort of ownership here and also an adjudicator of what is or isn't an expert topic. Please think about how you come across anyway.

After reading this post, I had a couple of questions:

1) Is it considered bad taste to welcome a new poster to the forums? Should this be the exclusive right for the mods?
2) Is it considered bad taste to advise new posters about the forum where their post belongs (in the opinion of the advisor)?
3) Does anybody think that mgoetze's post was impolite or improper?

I would welcome some discussion, since this confused me and I will kick off by giving my own opinion below:
1) I think it is good manners to welcome new posters, and in fact we all should try and do that.
2) I think that if someone has the "authority" (among others: bridge playing skills and experience) to judge about the appropriate forums, it is perfectly ok to politely advise new posters on the proper forum.
3) I think that mgoetze's post was kind and polite. In contrast, Straube's post seemed to me to be the start of a struggle for king of the "expert forum hill". I was surpised that Straube got upvoted 3 times for that post, by -what I consider- respectable forum members.

Finally, I will give my answer to Straube's question whether mgoetze claims to be an expert: I don't know what mgoetze claims to be. But I do know that I claim that mgoetze is an expert.

Rik

[diana_eva]

I think the reaction was not to mgoetze being nice to a newcomer, but rather to him coming across as host of the exp forums.

Of course we should all welcome newcomers and guide them to the proper forum, it's not something only mods are supposed to do.

[kenberg]

It's true that the question would seem to me to be placed in the wrong forum.

As to what should be done about the reasonable view that I/A is a better home for the question, I have a suggestion. I would bet that this question has been discussed before, and I would bet it has been discussed in the I/A forum. I am not all that skilled in finding my way around the archives, but some are. The moderator, for example. So it would not take long for such skilled people to find a reference. This reference could be given, and the OP could note, on his/her own, that the discussion took place in I/A.

I try not to get too offended too quickly if someone gives me advice or criticism. The mgoetze response could easily be taken badly, but beginning one's posting career in the expert forum does come across as a bit brash.

[Fluffy]

I think michael did a great job on that one, it is important to teach people where to post, and he also does a great job with many other things on the forum meaning that if a non-mod had to pick something I would rather let michael do it sooner than a random poster.

And it is not like instructing people to post on proper forum is a great and rewarding task. Whenever I see any post from 'deep' the dolphin on expert forum I would like to do the same but don't find the words. My aproach was to ginore his posts wishing that all experts would do the same, but then a lot of players I wouldn't rate as experts would see an easy question on Expert forum, with no answers and think it is their precious time to show their abilities. So my passive aproach didn't work. Michael's on the other hand does, his approach is more effective.

That being said, I disagree with what he did with straube's post before. straube has been posting for long and always in apropiate forums, I didn't find the post in question yet but I would bet for straube not being far away form what I would consider Expert standard.

[diana_eva]

Posting questions in the exp forum is a common mistake for newcomers - they seek exp advice so they ask where they think experts would look.

These issues can be handled more discreetly, for example sending a private message to the poster, asking a mod to move the post also privately or via Report button, or as Ken suggested giving references to similar questions posted in the correct forum.

[billw55]

I thought mgoetze's post was fine, courteous and not out of line at all. Straube's on the other hand ... well, not so much.

[mgoetze]

 straube, on 2013-January-31, 14:11, said:

Mgoetze, do you claim to be an expert?

No. I do think my knowledge of bidding methods is up to that level but my bidding judgement and cardplay are most definitely not.

Quote

What's your role here?

I'm a long-time forum member who has oft asked for more moderation, and was very happy with the split into E and I/A (rather than A/E and B/I), but considers this split ultimately worthless if it is not enforced consistently.

Quote

The moderator appears to be Inquiry, but you've set yourself up as someone who "welcomes"

I think any regular member should welcome anyone making their first post regardless of which forum it is in.

Quote

or has some sort of ownership here and also an adjudicator of what is or isn't an expert topic.

I feel that, lacking active moderation, it is up to the most active long-time members to speak up about these things in order to keep some semblance of distinction between the forums. Note that I do exactly the same with regard to, say, General Bridge Discussion vs. General BBO Discussion, it is just by far not as controversial.

Quote

In fact, you said you thought there would be expert consensus but didn't know what that would be!

Yes, see above, I am not an expert. Nevertheless I do think I have a good idea of the relative skill levels of the most active contributors to the forum and I am sorry to say that, in my estimation, you are not one either.

[kenberg]

 diana_eva, on 2013-February-01, 07:19, said:

Posting questions in the exp forum is a common mistake for newcomers - they seek exp advice so they ask where they think experts would look.

Perhaps this is so, but I see it as a generous assumption. What would these people then think the I/A forum is for? If you want a good answer you post on the expert forum, if you want a run of the mill answer you post on the I/A forum?

A casual perusal of the topics on I/A would show that many experts, that's real experts, take the time to give their views on questions raised there. JLall responds there, as does fred. And I mean no slight by only listing those two, or by casting them as experts instead of as the WC players that they are. I just mean that you get some very high level opinion. There is no serious danger that if you post on I/A you will get answers only from posters of limited knowledge.


It's inevitable that there will be some difference of views about what constitutes an expert level question. This seems to me to be the explanation of the post, rather than a belief that the expert forum is the place for all of us to go to get expert opinion on non-expert level topics.

[mgoetze]

Proof that mine was a minority position 2 years ago: http://www.bridgebas...rum-moderation/

[diana_eva]

 kenberg, on 2013-February-01, 08:13, said:

Perhaps this is so, but I see it as a generous assumption. What would these people then think the I/A forum is for? If you want a good answer you post on the expert forum, if you want a run of the mill answer you post on the I/A forum?

I meant that as a general observation, not referring to that particular post where mgoetze replied.

I remember very well the first time I logged on the BBO Forums. This was the first Forum I ever visited, so I was extremely inexperienced with online communities and the internet in general. The forums stroke me as cluttered. It did not occur to me at that time that the same people read all the subforums, I thought each subforum has its own community.

[mgoetze]

For reference, here is the post about which straube is upset:

 mgoetze, on 2013-January-29, 18:10, said:

When I first saw this thread, I wasn't entirely sure what the correct bid is (I'm happy to learn I got it right), but I was quite sure there would be a strong expert consensus. Maybe consider the I/A forum next time?

I did make an effort to be polite, and would welcome suggestions as to how I could have done even better, but obviously the real question is whether I am entitled to make this suggestion at all.

[straube]

I think the meaning of welcoming someone is saying "I'm glad you came. Feel comfortable here." When mgoetze welcomed the new poster and immediately followed with several sentences regarding the inappropriate placement of the post, it does not come across as welcoming. Also, if someone says "welcome" when I'm entering their home, I feel good about that. If they say "welcome" when I go to a place of non-ownership...say a bowling alley or whatever...I feel like the person could be establishing territory.

I'm glad that mgoetze finally got around to answering the poster's question, but otherwise I didn't think much of his response.

Quote

Yes, see above, I am not an expert. Nevertheless I do think I have a good idea of the relative skill levels of the most active contributors to the forum and I am sorry to say that, in my estimation, you are not one either.

So you're not an expert but feel free to inform other people that they aren't experts? I wouldn't feel comfortable providing assessments of others' abilities unasked. I think you're rude. Also, why do you use the wordage "I am sorry to say"? That's something Bentsen might have use...."I am sorry to say, you're no Jack Kennedy". Sarcasm or something like it.

[CSGibson]

There is a difference between addressing an experienced poster and a new poster. I think MGoetze does people a service when he addresses a new poster by welcoming them, and then politely & publicly giving them guidance on appropriate forum behavior. That post is a warning - not to the new poster so much, as to the old establishment. It tells them not to rip this guy to shreds because 1) he's new and 2) its been dealt with.

On the other hand, I feel like posting publicly telling experienced posters that you feel their topic is in the wrong forum is inappropriate as a first response; in that case, the posting does not come accross as protecting the OP or to inform them as much as to challenge them publicly. A private message may be more appropriate in that case.

As for the actual original topic David posted which was moved, I agree that it was not going to be an interesting problem for experts, because it really asked "do you play this as preemptive, or constructive in this context". There is no real analysis involved, or depths of the question to plumb, its merely a statement of what treatment do you prefer and possibly why. But if an experienced poster like David thinks that it is worth putting in the expert forums, then I think he has earned the benefit of the doubt for one question - its not like he's spamming that forum or anything.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[onoway]

 billw55, on 2013-February-01, 07:25, said:

I thought mgoetze's post was fine, courteous and not out of line at all. Straube's on the other hand ... well, not so much.

Agree completely. If I venture into unknown territory I appreciate it if someone gives me guidance as to the customs. It doesn't have to be the head honcho, in fact it's less embarrassing if it isn't, if I have inadvertently done something incorrect.

I think it's unfortunate that Straube's post seems so aggressive.

[diana_eva]

 CSGibson, on 2013-February-01, 10:31, said:

... I think MGoetze does people a service when he addresses a new poster by welcoming them, and then politely & publicly giving them guidance on appropriate forum behavior. That post is a warning - not to the new poster so much, as to the old establishment. It tells them not to rip this guy to shreds because 1) he's new and 2) its been dealt with.

...

Good point, you are right. I thought dealing with it privately was better, but now I see why it is not such a good idea.

[Phil]

If I accuse someone of appointing themselves of being a gatekeeper am I acting as a gatekeeper myself?

[barmar]

FYI, mgoetze DID report the threads to the moderators at the same time as he replied to the poster, and I moved the threads.

I think welcoming the player is a very good idea when posting replies like that. It acknowledges that you know they're new here, and might not be aware of the lay of the land. I also think a friendly remark softens the blow of the criticism of their post.

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2013-February-01, 08:13, said:

Perhaps this is so, but I see it as a generous assumption. What would these people then think the I/A forum is for? If you want a good answer you post on the expert forum, if you want a run of the mill answer you post on the I/A forum?

Many new posters (and even some old-timers) don't look carefully at all the choices, so they can decide where to post. Why do you think there are so many BBO-related posts put in General Bridge Discussion instead of one of the BBO-specific forums?

And if players overestimate their own abilities, they may assume any problem they find difficult is an expert-level question. Consider the thread a couple of weeks ago about how to respond to Stayman when holding a 5-card major. He claimed to be an advanced player, but on inquiry it turns out that he was mainly talking about his card-play, his bidding expertise is very limited (like someone who has probably been playing kitchen-table bridge all his life).

[mgoetze]

 barmar, on 2013-February-01, 11:54, said:

Many new posters (and even some old-timers) don't look carefully at all the choices, so they can decide where to post. Why do you think there are so many BBO-related posts put in General Bridge Discussion instead of one of the BBO-specific forums?

Probably for the same reason that threads in the "BBO Forum Events" forum get much fewer replies than considerably more mundane topics in the General Bridge Discussion forum. Location, location, location.

[barmar]

 Trinidad, on 2013-February-01, 05:16, said:

I am not sure whether this is the right forum to discuss this, but I know that the forum where this discussion started is not the right place .

Since this is BBO-specific, I've moved it to the General BBO Discussion forum.