[straube]

You are South and fourth seat. Unfavorable. RHO sticks in a 1H bid if available.

................void
................842
................Q8643
................QJT72
8632..........................J74
J6...............................KQ953
JT2.............................97
A954..........................K63
................AKQT95
................AT7
................AK5
................8


P P P 1C

4S N SCREAM 3/4
3N S Meckwell Light PH
4S S PhilKing
4S S Precision by Free
5D N New Big Club
3N S Polish Club
3N S Silent Club
4S N IMPrecision
3N S Relknes
5D N Moscito
5D N OC Precision
5D N dake50
4H N TOSR
3N S Zelandakh
5D S Jasmine Club
4S S tosr (mbodell)

[straube]

 straube, on 2013-January-13, 02:17, said:

You are South and fourth seat. Unfavorable. RHO sticks in a 1H bid if available.

................void
................842
................Q8643
................QJT72
8632..........................J74
J6...............................KQ953
JT2.............................97
A954..........................K63
................AKQT95
................AT7
................AK5
................8


P P P 1C

We have been exploring a different system in 3rd and 4th and I would not recommend SCREAM in those positions. Our bidding goes...

.......P
1C-1D (1H) 16+, 2-4 QPs
P -1S GF relay, bal or various
1N-2D ask, minors
2H-2N ask, 5/5
3C-3D ask, spade short (we assume 1255)
3H-3S ask, 2 QPs
4D-4H puppets, forced
4S

We try to stay in system if possible. Without the 1H overcall, a rebid of 1H would either be natural or a GF asking bid, so I think it's natural that pass would mean only GF relay while dbl would mean natural and possibly GF relay. Should responder pull the double, opener could force game with further relays or break relay to show a minimum hand with hearts.

It turns out slam can be made in either spades or diamonds due to favorable breaks and the fall of the SJ.

[Free]

With us it would probably go something like this:
1♣-1♦ (16+ ; 0-7 any)
(1♥)
1♠-2♣ (4+♠, F1 ; 5-7HCP, 0-2♠)
4♠?-pass (to play)

There's a slower route to find the ♦ fit, but not sure you want to be in slam. The only source of tricks can come from ♦ (which North happens to have), but how can we find out if he's got the ♦Q in time?

[Hilver]

Hilversumse Klaveren

1♣ - 2♠
2NT - 3♦
3♥ - 3NT
4NT - 5♣
5♦

Explanation:
2♠ = 5+/5+ minors; 4-7 HCP
2NT = asking bid
3♦ = 5-5 minors and a void
3♥ = asking void in ♥ or ♠
4♣ = void in spades
4NT = asking for keycards
5♣ = no keycards
5♦ = sign off; it's a pity but I don't gamble

Jan

[straube]

 Free, on 2013-January-13, 03:32, said:

With us it would probably go something like this:
1♣-1♦ (16+ ; 0-7 any)
(1♥)
1♠-2♣ (4+♠, F1 ; 5-7HCP, 0-2♠)
4♠?-pass (to play)

There's a slower route to find the ♦ fit, but not sure you want to be in slam. The only source of tricks can come from ♦ (which North happens to have), but how can we find out if he's got the ♦Q in time?

Even with the DQ I wonder whether it's right to be in slam. I can find the DQ with a bid of 4C (pd will show 0 or 2 top diamonds with a 1-step response) but we still need all six spade tricks to come in. In my auction I'm presuming a stiff so dropping the jack seems more likely than not (someone knows the odds) but pd is actually void and I also think I have to have a 3-2 diamond split. Maybe 45% slam?

[straube]

 Hilver, on 2013-January-13, 03:47, said:

Hilversumse Klaveren

1♣ - 2♠
2NT - 3♦
3♥ - 3NT
4NT - 5♣
5♦

Explanation:
2♠ = 5+/5+ minors; 4-7 HCP
2NT = asking bid
3♦ = 5-5 minors and a void
3♥ = asking void in ♥ or ♠
3NT = void in spades
4NT = asking for keycards
5♣ = no keycards
5♦ = sign off; it's a pity but I don't gamble

Jan

Nice 2S bid to have. Is that available all seats or only for a passed hand? Nice auction.

[petterb]

 straube, on 2013-January-13, 02:17, said:

You are South and fourth seat. Unfavorable. RHO sticks in a 1H bid if available.

................void
................842
................Q8643
................QJT72
8632..........................J74
J6...............................KQ953
JT2.............................97
A954..........................K63
................AKQT95
................AT7
................AK5
................8


P P P 1C

Surely no one would pass East's hand in third fav?

[awm]

Agree many would open the east hand in third NV. Ignoring that, IMprecision auction would start:

1♣ - 2♣ (strong, 5+♣ maybe also diamonds 2-6RP 5+ hcp)
2♦ - 2♠ (GF relay, 5+/5+ in the minors)
2NT - 3♣ (relay, short spades)
3♦ - 3♠ (relay, 0355 pattern)

At this point opener knows there's a bit of a lousy fit. Slam is still fairly good opposite ♦Q+♣A or ♦Q+♥K, but seems lousy opposite the actual hand. I think my path here would diverge depending on form of scoring.

At MP:

4♣ - 4♦ (ask strength, 2-3 RP)
4♠ - Pass (slam seems unlikely opposite 2-3 RP, and I want to be in the higher scoring game rather than reaching 5♦)

At IMP:

4♣ - 4♦ (ask strength, 2-3 RP)
4♥ - 4♠ (try again, 2 RP)
Pass

In the latter auction, it is possible that responder will go past 4♠ on a hand where slam is not so good, by bidding one of:

4NT (3RP no top diamond); I will try 5♦
5♣ (3RP top diamond no top club); this is ♥K+♦Q and I will try slam
5♦ (3RP top diamond top club no top heart); this is ♦Q + ♣K and I will pass and play 5♦
5♥ (3RP with ♥Q+♦Q+♣Q); I will try slam; at least hearts are protected from the lead and partner might have ♥J or ♦J which helps a lot

[Hilver]

 straube, on 2013-January-13, 04:04, said:

Nice 2S bid to have. Is that available all seats or only for a passed hand? Nice auction.

In all seats.

Jan

[FM75]

Nice problem. Discussing this with partner and raising it with Oliver Clarke as well.

We like:
...
X - 2♦ takeout and opener has "more than minimum", 5 diamonds (forced < 7) (p would have doubled 1♥ by E to show 5-7)
2♠ - 3♣ No spade interest, 5-7 at least 54 minors

now it gets murky and judgmental - could rebid spades showing 6, 3N looks risky in rounded, coin toss.

4♠ or 5♦ (I think I prefer 5♦ "Bergen counting" it to 28-29 assuming p has 5 hcp and probably useful shape in the minor contract.

There might also be something to be said for 4♦ (strong invitation) allowing partner to show a good 1 spade or 2 spade holding.

[JLOGIC]

1C 1D (1H) (strong, 0-7)
X 2D (I would be thinking 3N as the opener, so I would double to see what partner does)
2H 3C (2S would be strong but NF, and with a good chance for 9 tricks I won't make a NF bid.)
3N P (The decision point has come, I think 3N is a slam dunk).

I was thinking maybe north would bid something stronger than 2D, but he knows his partner is doubling with long spades so his hand is pretty bad.

My auction may be a little ghetto but irl I am thinking 3N all the way after 1C p 1D (1H), it's just how my brain works.

[sieong]

Also IMprecision, with a different choice in the third round.

1♣ - 2♣ (strong; 2-6RP, 5+♣)
2♦ - 2♠ (GF; 55 minors)
3♣ - 3♦ (short ♣ and relay; short ♠)
3♥ - 3N (relay; 0355)
4♣ - 4♦ (RP ask; 0-1 RP not counting ♣K/Q)
4♠

Over 4♣, if responder bids 4♥, the hand could be - Qxx Qxxxx xxxxx or - Kxx xxxxx xxxxx. Slam is poor in the first and no play in the second. I will signoff in game but unfortunately can no longer play 4♠. I will try 4NT at MP, and probably 5♦ at IMP.

If responder bids 4♠, the hand could be - KQx xxxxx xxxxx, - xxx xxxxx Axxxx, - Kxx Qxxxx xxxxx. Slam has no play in the first, so-so in the second and reasonable in the third(and pretty good if responder has ♦J, which I won't be able to find out below slam level). I will proceed with 4NT, getting 5♣ on hands 1 and 2, and 5♦ on hand 3 (over which I will bid slam). After 5♣ on hands 1 and 2, I will give up and try to play 5♠. Note that the above hand all look too weak because ♣K and Q were not included in the picture. For slam purposes, they are not useful, but for game purposes, they may still help. For example, opposite - KQx xxxxx Kxxxx, 5♠ has pretty good play.

[straube]

 sieong, on 2013-January-13, 14:09, said:

Also IMprecision, with a different choice in the third round.

1♣ - 2♣ (strong; 2-6RP, 5+♣)
2♦ - 2♠ (GF; 55 minors)
3♣ - 3♦ (short ♣ and relay; short ♠)
3♥ - 3N (relay; 0355)
4♣ - 4♦ (RP ask; 0-1 RP not counting ♣K/Q)
4♠

Over 4♣, if responder bids 4♥, the hand could be - Qxx Qxxxx xxxxx or - Kxx xxxxx xxxxx. Slam is poor in the first and no play in the second. I will signoff in game but unfortunately can no longer play 4♠. I will try 4NT at MP, and probably 5♦ at IMP.

If responder bids 4♠, the hand could be - KQx xxxxx xxxxx, - xxx xxxxx Axxxx, - Kxx Qxxxx xxxxx. Slam has no play in the first, so-so in the second and reasonable in the third(and pretty good if responder has ♦J, which I won't be able to find out below slam level). I will proceed with 4NT, getting 5♣ on hands 1 and 2, and 5♦ on hand 3 (over which I will bid slam). After 5♣ on hands 1 and 2, I will give up and try to play 5♠. Note that the above hand all look too weak because ♣K and Q were not included in the picture. For slam purposes, they are not useful, but for game purposes, they may still help. For example, opposite - KQx xxxxx Kxxxx, 5♠ has pretty good play.

Interesting. So would any relay break by opener show shortness? For example, would 3H show short hearts? I think I'll arbitrarily use the contract suggested by whomever of you posts first unless I see a revision by the first poster. Hope that sounds ok.

[hrothgar]

Traditionally, I played Blue Club in third/fourth seat.

A much sounder strong club opening, control showing responses and the like.

The auction would proceed

1♣ - 1♥ 1H denies three controls
1♠ - 2♦
2♠ - 3♣
3♦ - 4♦
4♥ - 5♦ 4♥= cue bid. 5♦ = don't cue shortage in partner's suit

[JLOGIC]

Which bids were forcing in your auction Richard? 2S, 3D?

[hrothgar]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-January-13, 15:37, said:

Which bids were forcing in your auction Richard? 2S, 3D?

1H establishes a force to 2NT

3♦ isn't forcing and, arguably, could/should be passed

don't ask me why I'm cue bidding after 4♦ (I'm chasing the Nyquil dragon trying to deal with this damn flu)

[JLOGIC]

Just my opinion but its too big to make a non forcing bid when you have 9 tricks in your hand if spades run. Even if spades don't run (which is like 50/50 opp a stiff) if partner produces Qxxxx of diamonds you have 9 that way if diamonds run.

[straube]

 hrothgar, on 2013-January-13, 15:52, said:

1H establishes a force to 2NT

3♦ isn't forcing and, arguably, could/should be passed

don't ask me why I'm cue bidding after 4♦ (I'm chasing the Nyquil dragon trying to deal with this damn flu)

Maybe opener needs to bid 3H (4SF) after 3C to start a GF?

1C-1H
1S-2S
2S-3C
3H*-4C
4D-5D

Like that? In any case, have you down for 5D.

What I've been thinking about a bit is that those of us (I think just you and I) using different structures for 3/4th seat are basically testing two different systems. That's fine as long as we're aware.

If we don't include 3/4th seat hands, then systems like IMPrecision (which handled this deal very well imo) won't have the relative advantage that comes from devoting more room to weaker hands. OTOH, if we're compelled to use systems that were meant for 1st and 2nd seat in 3rd and 4th as well, then these are disadvantaged.

When I post the contracts reached for these, I'll try to distinguish if a 3/4 system was used.

[relknes]

 straube, on 2013-January-13, 02:17, said:

You are South and fourth seat. Unfavorable. RHO sticks in a 1H bid if available.

................void
................842
................Q8643
................QJT72
8632..........................J74
J6...............................KQ953
JT2.............................97
A954..........................K63
................AKQT95
................AT7
................AK5
................8


P P P 1C

Using a fairly basic strong club with reverse-cuebids, I would bid:

1♣-1♦ (1♥)
2♠-3♣
3N

Translation:
S: 16+ points, N: 0-8 points, E: typical overcall
S: 6+ spades and 9+ playing tricks, N: 5-8 points, natural
S: to play

[rbforster]

I don't have as strong agreements on interference continuations (we play natural takeout doubles and bidding here), so this one is much more subjective.

P-1♣
1♦-(1♥)-2♠ most non GF hands; natural strongly invitational with a decent suit
3♣-3N natural with enough values for game; game

FWIW, this is still a Vul 2N minors opening by our partner, so we would preempt the auction before the strong club hand gets to bid. In that case, I think it'd just be

2N-3♠ 5/5 minors weak; natural GF
3N-P can't support spades

In both of these the weak hand has shown clubs, which makes it seem like 3N is a reasonable choice vs 4♠ opposite likely shortness. I'm not sure if it'd be right to pull 3N to 4♠ anyway.