[dustinst22]

I'm admittedly a very inexperienced live Bridge player, so really I'm posting this just to better understand the laws in this type of situation.
You open 3rd as South white vs red in a club pairs game:
QJ AKQxxxx J xxx

right or wrong, i opened 4H.

LHO paused for about 5 seconds with a quiet murmer "oh *****" and passes.
RHO now bids 4S.

I call director and am told that its noted and if we are damaged to call her back.

What types of hands would East be able to bid with here?
I pass, West now bids 5D and its passed out making 6.

East had:
AT953 x Kxxxx Jx

West had:
x T9 AQT743 AK32

Just a case of bad luck, or is this UI going on?
I called the director back and she ruled there was no damage.
Not saying i agree or disagree with the ruling, just wasnt sure and wanted some other opinion

[nige1]

dustinst22, on 2013-January-12, 19:06, said:

You open 3rd as South white vs red in a club pairs game: QJ AKQxxxx J xxx right or wrong, i opened 4H.
LHO paused for about 5 seconds with a quiet murmer "oh *****" and passes.
RHO now bids 4S.
I call director and am told that its noted and if we are damaged to call her back.
What types of hands would East be able to bid with here?
I pass, West now bids 5D and its passed out making 6.
East had: AT953 x Kxxxx Jx
West had:x T9 AQT743 AK32
Just a case of bad luck, or is this UI going on?
I called the director back and she ruled there was no damage.
Not saying i agree or disagree with the ruling, just wasnt sure and wanted some other opinions.

In most jurisdictions, your LHO would be considered to have passed with undue haste. He should have waited for about 10 seconds not 5..Arguably, however, the director should have ruled in your favour after you told him about LHO's "Oh *****" ( "Pass" must be a logical alternative for RHO and LHO's "Oh *****" seems to suggest action)..

[barmar]

I don't think the speed of passing is the most significant UI here, it's the quiet interjection.

And while 10 seconds is the required pause over a skip bid, few people actually last that long -- I think 5 seconds is typical of the people who deliberately pause (as opposed to the players who just ignore the requirement to hesitate).

[Vampyr]

You were definitely damaged -- East does not remotely have a bid.

[blackshoe]

barmar, on 2013-January-12, 22:51, said:

And while 10 seconds is the required pause over a skip bid, few people actually last that long -- I think 5 seconds is typical of the people who deliberately pause (as opposed to the players who just ignore the requirement to hesitate).

Which means what? The "real" rule is 5 seconds? If you argue the rule should be changed to 5 seconds, I wouldn't argue, but if you're saying a TD should ignore the fact that it is 10 seconds, well, no. Law 81B2.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2013-January-13, 10:29, said:

Which means what? The "real" rule is 5 seconds? If you argue the rule should be changed to 5 seconds, I wouldn't argue, but if you're saying a TD should ignore the fact that it is 10 seconds, well, no. Law 81B2.

In reality a TD is unlikely to rule that a bid has been made with undue haste when it is made after five seconds. In fact, the director will probably not be called. Yes, it is unfortunate, but anyway it is true.

I do not think that the length of the hesitation is the main point of this particular case.

[pigpenz]

In acbl it used to be announced "skip bid please wait", but with bid boxes that seems to be gone but it sounds like since a comment was made boxes werent being used here. There was some damage done here by the comment off to the Appeals Committee on this one

[dustinst22]

pigpenz, on 2013-January-13, 11:19, said:

In acbl it used to be announced "skip bid please wait", but with bid boxes that seems to be gone but it sounds like since a comment was made boxes werent being used here. There was some damage done here by the comment off to the Appeals Committee on this one

Unfortunately no appeals committe at the long beach club.

My LHO (West) was a director as well, and she "insisted" this was the correct ruling.

I'm pretty discouraged to see this kind of thing. I feel like the director was taking advantage of me because I'm not a regular player at the club, and she didnt want to upset the regulars and one of her fellow directors. The director didn't even bother to look at East's hand to see if it was a logical decision if he was able to ignore the UI.

Fortunately socal has better clubs than this one.

[paua]

dustinst22, on 2013-January-13, 12:46, said:

Unfortunately no appeals committe at the long beach club.

My LHO (West) was a director as well, and she "insisted" this was the correct ruling.

I'm pretty discouraged to see this kind of thing. I feel like the director was taking advantage of me because I'm not a regular player at the club, and she didnt want to upset the regulars and one of her fellow directors. The director didn't even bother to look at East's hand to see if it was a logical decision if he was able to ignore the UI.

Fortunately socal has better clubs than this one.

West shouldn't be insisting anything, she should leave it to the Director.
Sounds like you got a small town decision. Write a letter to the club, CC California Unit/ACBL, and then don't go back.

[dustinst22]

paua, on 2013-January-13, 13:01, said:

West shouldn't be insisting anything, she should leave it to the Director.
Sounds like you got a small town decision. Write a letter to the club, CC California Unit/ACBL.

Good suggestion, I'll do this.

[Phil]

I don't care if the pass took a millisecond if the person uttered "oh *****". There is clear UI and bidding 4♠ is a joke. The ruling is a bigger joke.

[Trinidad]

That ruling *****.

Rik

[vigfus]

There is UI here. What it is, noone exactly knows, but it is no doubt that LHO wanted to do something else than PASS.
RHO's hand is not good enough to enter the auction.
But having the knowledge of partners unconvinence, makes it much less risk enter the auction. I rule 4♥, undobled, but how many tricks I do not know.

[paua]

vigfus, on 2013-January-13, 17:18, said:

There is UI here. What it is, noone exactly knows, but it is no doubt that LHO wanted to do something else than PASS.
RHO's hand is not good enough to enter the auction.
But having the knowledge of partners unconvinence, makes it much less risk enter the auction. I rule 4♥, undobled, but how many tricks I do not know.

Looks like one off, losing a spade, a diamond and two clubs.

[Bbradley62]

paua, on 2013-January-13, 19:57, said:

Looks like one off, losing a spade, a diamond and two clubs.

No spade and/or club ruff?

[pigpenz]

paua, on 2013-January-13, 13:01, said:

West shouldn't be insisting anything, she should leave it to the Director.
Sounds like you got a small town decision. Write a letter to the club, CC California Unit/ACBL, and then don't go back.

Ditto
Sort of like having a football ref who wont call offsides when the opps are offsides
Save your money and spend it on GIB

[WellSpyder]

dustinst22, on 2013-January-13, 12:46, said:

The director didn't even bother to look at East's hand to see if it was a logical decision if he was able to ignore the UI.

Not even a pretence of applying the laws, then! (Unless, I suppose, the TD ruled that there was no UI. Given the comment LHO made, that would seem a pretty incredible ruling, too.)

[CamHenry]

I think the director was less egregiously wrong than has been suggested. Dustin's statement is that the director ruled "no damage". Suppose the actual result had been 5♦-1, not 5♦+1. In that case, your score has changed from -150 in 4♥ to +50 in 5♦, and your score has been improved. In that case there's genuinely no damage.

Now, I find it difficult to believe that there was "no damage" since they scored 420 here. It may be that everyone else played 6♦, or doubled 4♥ for 500, and there was no matchpoint damage: but even if that is true, the director should have adjusted. It looks like laziness rather than outright bias, since it is at least possible for an illegal action (East's 4♠ bid) to cause no damage.

If I were directing, I'd have had a word with East about not bidding based on UI, adjusted the score (even if there was no MP change), and given at least a warning to EW.

[billw55]

Phil, on 2013-January-13, 15:33, said:

I don't care if the pass took a millisecond if the person uttered "oh *****". There is clear UI and bidding 4♠ is a joke. The ruling is a bigger joke.

True, yes.

dustinst22, on 2013-January-13, 12:46, said:

Unfortunately no appeals committe at the long beach club.

My LHO (West) was a director as well, and she "insisted" this was the correct ruling.

I'm pretty discouraged to see this kind of thing. I feel like the director was taking advantage of me because I'm not a regular player at the club, and she didnt want to upset the regulars and one of her fellow directors. The director didn't even bother to look at East's hand to see if it was a logical decision if he was able to ignore the UI.

Fortunately socal has better clubs than this one.

I think you will find that there are many more clubs where this happens, than clubs where it doesn't. Often it is a profitable venture for the director, and he wants to keep his tables full week in week out. It is natural for him to prefer losing you, a first timer who may never come back anyway, than an established repeat customer. You can argue that fair treatment of newcomers would serve him better, but ultimately that is his decision to make.

I have come to accept general shenanigans at club games, where nothing is really at stake. In this case I would just laugh to myself and get on with the game. A tournament is a different matter, it is a sure director call and, in all likelihood, a correct ruling.

[barmar]

CamHenry, on 2013-January-14, 07:18, said:

Now, I find it difficult to believe that there was "no damage" since they scored 420 here. It may be that everyone else played 6♦, or doubled 4♥ for 500, and there was no matchpoint damage: but even if that is true, the director should have adjusted. It looks like laziness rather than outright bias, since it is at least possible for an illegal action (East's 4♠ bid) to cause no damage.

How could declarer know what "everyone else" played until the end of the session? I interpreted the OP to be saying that the TD made this "no damage" ruling when he was called back at the end of the hand.