[mr1303]

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Your agreements are that 4C when clubs are agreed is Minorwood.

Should bidding 4C here be Minorwood, or should 4C be agreeing clubs and setting trumps for slam investigation?

My view is that when a hand is known to be balanced (like mine was), it is far less likely that it would want to take control with RKCB, and would prefer to agree clubs and start a cue-bidding sequence.

[glen]

Something to discuss

A 4♣ bid would agree ♣s. Partnership states "4C when clubs are agreed is Minorwood". Could define as "4C when clubs are already agreed is Minorwood".

[Codo]

well, if you want to cuebid, why don't you bid them on the 3. level? 3 clubs sets trumps opposite a balanced hand, so 3 ♦♥♠ are all cues for clubs- or at least for NT. That makes 4 ♣ senseless.

OTOH Why on earth does the balanced hand want to ask his unlimited partner- for jme this bid does simply not exists- it consumes space without any particular message.

[dake50]

As Codo, Q-bid now, but even a Q-bid, say 3S, puts us likely
right back into 4C ask/show when partner bids 3NT.
Maybe he can 4C ask, but can we quit in 4NT?
I like 4C agrees clubs, after a Q-bid now, then his 4D! is minorwood.
Unfortunately, only 5C quits if we start this path.

[glen]

dake50, on 2012-December-31, 08:56, said:

... I like 4C agrees clubs, after a Q-bid now, then his 4D! is minorwood ...

This is my preference too.

4m+1 is Kickback (4♦ over 3♣ in the example)
4m shows good hand for minor, and now cheapest bid is Kickback

[straube]

glen, on 2012-December-31, 13:40, said:

This is my preference too.

4m+1 is Kickback (4♦ over 3♣ in the example)
4m shows good hand for minor, and now cheapest bid is Kickback

I like this, too. If only one suit is in focus (as in the example), you can RKC yourself (in this case 4D) or invite your partner to do so by bidding 4 of the minor (4C here). If you agree this, you have to agree not to jump to 4H when it could be taken as RKC for diamonds (e.g. 1H-2D, 3D-4H).

[wyman]

kantar says suit agreement is never KC

[Free]

My preference is that 4♣ sets trumps after which you start your slam investigation. My favorite slam investigation method with minor suit fits is Kickback Turbo, which combines cuebids with showing odd/even number of keycards (and the possibility to ask for trump Q).

I play minorwood only after jumps to 4m which set trumps (which is very rare, I think it's only possible during a strong ♣ auction). In that case we just need to know the number of keycards, maybe trump Q, and specific King(s). If we don't want to minorwood, then we use a longer route to 4m.

[Zelandakh]

Assuming 3♣ showed 6+ clubs, slam interest and denied interest in any other suit, try
3♦ = slam try
3M = serious cues
3NT = min rubbish
4♣ = serious diamond cue
4♦ = RKCB

Obviously this cannot apply if you also need the 3 level bids to investigate for 3NT. I have a whole bunch of rules for minor suit agreements of different sorts. This feels like something along the lines of "3 level agreement with known slam interest; 3NT still in picture". It does seem to me that both hands are essentially unlimited here so I think whatever else you do you need to find a way to limit one or the other. The 3♦ bid in my suggestion does this. If you cannot afford to use that then I think you should use 4♣ for this purpose instead. My standard responses for that are 4♦ = decline slam try and 4♥ thru 5♣ accepting the slam try and showing key cards. I believe Codo uses something quite similar too but here using the 3 level for cue/asking bids just seems to make more sense.

[CSGibson]

There seems like a simple fix in context of the auction: 3♠ is a slam try in clubs. Opener can then slow it down if he wants by bidding 3N, keycard, or cue-bid as appropriate.

[Lurpoa]

mr1303, on 2012-December-31, 05:43, said:

---

Your agreements are that 4C when clubs are agreed is Minorwood.

Should bidding 4C here be Minorwood, or should 4C be agreeing clubs and setting trumps for slam investigation?

My view is that when a hand is known to be balanced (like mine was), it is far less likely that it would want to take control with RKCB, and would prefer to agree clubs and start a cue-bidding sequence.

I mist be missing somthing.
There is not even a GF forcing situation.
4♣ cannot be a minorwood...

Can somebody explain this to me ?

[Zelandakh]

Lurpoa, on 2014-February-25, 04:06, said:

There is not even a GF forcing situation.

Click on the bids in the diagram that have a yellow background, particularly 2NT. This is a strong club auction and 2NT established a game force.

[dick payne]

Neither 1C nor 1D are explained. I assume 1C is strong and perhaps 1D is a typo for 1H
In a two club system "senior hand" is a large bunch of bananas. In a one club system "senior hand" is a fundamental concept which underlies all sequences. In a two club auction both players make a series of predetermined noises until one or other of the players grabs the auction by the scruff of the neck, brings out the old faithful 4NT saying "tell me how many controls you have and I will do the business"
Senior hand is,in fact,the player who knows most about the other hand. After an artificial 1C, opener is the senior hand, partner will try to make descriptive responses and rebids in an effort to define his hand within closer and closer limits until the "captain of the ship" announces where he is going
Any other limited opening bid (not 1C) automatically confers seniority upon partner who might have anything between 6 and 26 points.
In Blue Club style cue bidding there are occasions where senior hand will abandon seniority and pass the baton to partner. A simple bog standard 1C sequence might be 1C (16+) 1H ( natural game going values) 1NT (controls?) 2H/2S (x/y controls) 3H (trump quality?) 4 any (trump quality) 4H This is open to partnership discussion, but a partnership might agree that asking for controls and trump quality is in itself an slam try which is not the whole story. Junior hand is told " If you have lots of fillers which have not been shown, and a useful side suit or a shortage , feel free to bid on" This was common in Blue Club
However do not let this exception confuse the issue When partner opens 1C (unlimited), you try to describe your hand, and if later you get up on your hind legs and ask him (the unlimited hand) how many controls he has, this is ridiculous. A good analogy would be a flea trying to rape an elephant
MInorwood is indispensable. There are two rules that players should consider 1/ Only senior hand uses MW 2/ In responding to a limited opening bid it is possible to construct a 4m bid which is invitational and in a different sequence it can forcing. If it is forcing 4m is MW .If it is invitational four of the other minor is MW

[Zelandakh]

dick payne, on 2014-February-25, 08:55, said:

Neither 1C nor 1D are explained. I assume 1C is strong and perhaps 1D is a typo for 1H

Both are explained. You have to:

Zelandakh, on 2014-February-25, 05:39, said:

Click on the bids in the diagram that have a yellow background

dick payne, on 2014-February-25, 08:55, said:

MInorwood is indispensable.

And yet many players somehow manage to play at a world class level without it. There are certainly times when MW is useful but to call it indispensable is going way too far. There are very few occasions when Kickback/Redwood cannot achieve equal results to MW and plenty of examples where the loss of 4m as a slam try or for a cue auction costs.

[Flem72]

Our 2/1 MW agreements are that 1m-1X/3m-4m is MW, IOW when m bidder claims a strong suit. Since OP specifies a strong 1C opener, and confirms a C suit., and them says it's a real C suit, I'd like 4C here initiating MW agreements.

[dick payne]

Thank you Zelandakh

[steve2005]

Could never understand why anyone would want to use Minorwood
4♣ so useful as an INV bid
or in a gf auction as a general slam try where he wants to cooperate or let partner take control

the other choices are better. Kickback, but Redwood is possible
Redwood uses just the red suits as artificial keycard ask
4♦ as ask for ♣
and 4♥ as ask for ♦
4N is still ask for a major

[nige1]

mr1303, on 2012-December-31, 05:43, said:

Your agreements are that 4C when clubs are agreed is Minorwood.
Should bidding 4C here be Minorwood, or should 4C be agreeing clubs and setting trumps for slam investigation?
My view is that when a hand is known to be balanced (like mine was), it is far less likely that it would want to take control with RKCB, and would prefer to agree clubs and start a cue-bidding sequence.

---

IMO, simple consistent agreements are a great advantage even if they might seem incongruous in a particular context. Anyway it's dangerous to invent system, on the hoof. Here, some would say that it makes sense for the (unlimited) balanced hand to take control.

[mycroft]

Minorwood is potentially not best, and there are definitely sequences where 4m is better used for something else. But Kickback has its issues as well, especially when the redsuit has been bid naturally (I realize not in this case).

I Just Don't Play Enough for Kickback to show a profit over even 4NT for all, given that any accident is -11 or -13 IMPs. I would need a lot of wins - not just break-evens or "easiers" - to make up for the once a year we're on the wrong page.

There are definitely Minorwood screwups, too; but it's a lot less likely to be fatal. There are "wish I could make a INV 4m call" hands, too; but there are "wish I didn't play transfers" hands, too. That doesn't stop me from playing transfers, given it's a net plus. I could switch to something better, but with my partners and agreements and play/work frequency, I have no confidence it would be a net plus in my partnerships.

[Kungsgeten]

I've been noticing the convention Optional RKCB in Bridge World's challenge the champ. I have not yet quite understood in what kind of situations this is used, but I guess one option would be to play it instead of Minorwood, and thus combining the ace ask and the slam invitational hand into the same bid?

[clubs is known as trump]
4C = Optional RKC (ace ask or slam invitational)
...4D = Denies slam invite
......4H = But I still want to know your keycards!
.........4S = 1 or 4
.........4N = 0 or 3
.........5C = 2 without queen
.........5D = 2 with queen
......4N/5C = Sign off
...4H = 1 or 4
...4S = 0 or 3
...4N = 2 without queen
...5C = 2 with queen
4D = Cue bid
4H = Cue bid
4S = Cue bid
4N = ?

[no trump suit has been agreed, clubs has been bid naturally by either side]
4C = Optional RKC
4D+ = Whatever makes sense in the auction