[mycroft]

Absolutely I could. They look at me funny often enough as it is, though :-).

Seriously, you are technically absolutely right that that would be the best way to do it. Practically, nobody cares - and in fact they'd find it odd if this were not true - if I grab it for 5 seconds to write down the contract and then put it back; and another 5 seconds to put in the result and put it back. Compared to those that do all of that, but "put it back" means "...in their purse/on the floor/ in their pocket/under their butt"...

[barmar]

 Trinidad, on 2012-December-10, 09:52, said:

The fact that the score is kept on the backside of the CC seems related, but it isn't. Mind you that we are talking about a regular partner. That means that they have played before and that Art has already filled out a zillion score cards (and CCs) in the past. As long as their CC doesn't change every session there will be lots of correct CCs around.

Art's partner can take the CC's home after each session then he will have CCs whether he likes to score or not.

Rik

But if his partner never fills out a CC, there's nothing to take home.

I've seen lots of regular partnerships where they fill out a new CC each time they play, put the scores on the reverse side, and then toss it at the end of the evening. They don't bother with the plastic CC holders. Some players like to save their CCs to save this work, some just don't bother. Most of the players like this are not very good and don't have very complicated or detailed agreements -- they've rarely discussed anything that isn't one of the checkboxes on the CC.

[blackshoe]

 barmar, on 2012-December-11, 19:02, said:

Most of the players like this are not very good and don't have very complicated or detailed agreements -- they've rarely discussed anything that isn't one of the checkboxes on the CC.

And frequently when you ask them for an explanation of something you get a blank stare.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2012-December-11, 19:09, said:

And frequently when you ask them for an explanation of something you get a blank stare.

When I get that stare, that's how I know that they're poor players. I probably have a better idea of what their partner means than they do.

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-11, 18:36, said:

I'd say most players don't use the back of their CC for scoring but use a new CC sheet each time. The trouble is the CC sheet is folded with the score sheet
or stuck in the plastic holder, making them inseparable.

I'll bet I could manage to separate two sheets of paper folded together, or one sheet from a plastic holder. In fact, I myself sometimes fold my CC in half and put it inside my scorecard for carrying from table to table. And I haven't once been unable to detach my CC when beginning the next round.

Perhaps it's not necessary; mycroft says his way works fine*, but does mention that he could separate his scorecard and CC if he wished to. Perhaps he could fill you in on the technical details.

Quote

How the CC is contructed or displayed isnt really the problem, it's not having one, having an incomplete, inaccurate CC or using a CC from another partnership that cause the problems.

Well, one can change one's immediate environment by enforcing the regulation when directing, and expecting enforcement by the director when playing. But the dual-purpose thing may well be the cause of some people's not knowing that the CC is intended for the benefit of the opponents.

*So long as the opponent does not prefer to keep m's CC in a place that is more convenient for self, but apparently this never happens in the ACBL.

[jillybean]

 Vampyr, on 2012-December-11, 19:32, said:

I'll bet I could manage to separate two sheets of paper folded together, or one sheet from a plastic holder. In fact, I myself sometimes fold my CC in half and put it inside my scorecard for carrying from table to table. And I haven't once been unable to detach my CC when beginning the next round.

Perhaps it's not necessary; mycroft says his way works fine*, but does mention that he could separate his scorecard and CC if he wished to. Perhaps he could fill you in on the technical details.

Did you really think I meant that literally or are you just being a troll?

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-11, 19:50, said:

Did you really think I meant that literally or are you just being a troll?

If you didn't mean it literally, it was hardly a valid or relevant comment. Why would you say "they are inseparable" when you meant to say "people choose to keep them together"? Was your cat running over your keyboard and causing gibberish to come out?

[JLOGIC]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-December-06, 06:24, said:

Strange, I thought this was how it is done by top American pairs. Many pointed out in that thread that anything within the laws cannot be unethical. FWiiW I agree with you; but that will not stop players from getting ahead by using such methods. Or perhaps this is unethical if done by normal players but ok when done by world class players?

Come on man really? You think this is what all top american pairs do because of the meckwell incident? Not all top players behave a certain way because meck does. Also, why do you imply more top Americans behave this way than other countries? There are notable top Italians, poles, etc who are always whining and calling the director and doing whatever is in the rules to win.

IMO very few top players would do what you said. I would bet far more normal players as you say would do something like that if they could. It is just more notable and reported when a meckwell like pair do it. There is massive selection bias, normal players as you call them are definitely less ethical and less well behaved as a group than good players and it is not close. But of course there are many examples of badly behaved or unethical or ruthless do whatever is in the rules types at the top level and those are always heard about

It is also a case of people thinking that top players know more than they do. For instance if someone in the middle of the match opened an illegal bid I would call the director. No doubt they would think that I purposely waited for it to come up before calling, but the reality would be I didn't know they played an illegal bid until they bid it. I don't look at peoples convention card so how would I know. Or if someone opened multi and didn't have the defense I would call the director since I have no discussed multi defense. No doubt I would be accused of knowing my multi defense but calling the director anyways.

[JLOGIC]

As far as the cc thing I will admit to being guilty of having only one card semi often. I make out a new card every day but always lose it at some point especially if east west. I have gotten most of my partners to have two cards on them to combat this, but some are as absent minded as me while playing.

This is not good but it seems like a minor inconvenience and much less of a sin to having no card or one incomplete card. I think it should not be a penalty if you have one complete card but obv this might be a self serving thought.

[jillybean]

 Vampyr, on 2012-December-11, 20:05, said:

If you didn't mean it literally, it was hardly a valid or relevant comment. Why would you say "they are inseparable" when you meant to say "people choose to keep them together"? Was your cat running over your keyboard and causing gibberish to come out?

Here in North America, players keep their Convention Card and score sheet together, folded or filed in a protective sleeve. If you attempted to take another players CC out of the sleeve or even seperate it from the sheet they are using to keep score, people would think you had lost your mind or at minimum, all of your manners.

My post was in response to your comment "You could, if you wanted, score on the back side of a previously-used convention card; then your current card and your scoresheet would be separate." as it seemed that you did not realize how people used their CC's and scoresheets here. Sorry if my use of the word "inseparable" caused you so much angst.

[Trinidad]

When I played in the ACBL in the '90s, there were quite a few players who kept their CC to themselves. However, there were also lots of players who had designated CC's, separate from the score cards. Often they were laminated, often made on the computer, sometimes they were "cute" (e.g. with a picture of their cat or card symbols/smileys around the edges). There even was a company where you could order your CC nicely filled out, printed and laminated.

Has this changed?

This is exactly how CC's are made in a large part of the world. My bridge club doesn't have blank CC's in paper form. They do provide a template in Word. Everybody has a CC. Most of them are laminated. Some (like me) keep them in plastic sleeves. I have a binder with different CCs and in the glove compartment of my car I have a two copies of the CC for the partner I play most with. Obviously all my CCs are stored on my PC in the folder "convention cards".

Everybody can email a copy of their CC's to the TD. If someone has forgotten to bring his CC (doesn't really happen) or didn't have time to drive home between work and bridge to eat and get the CC's (does happen) the TD will find the CC on the computer and will print one.

I guess that in a few years everybody will have a CC app on their smartphone. Before the round, you will give your phone to your LHO and he can look at it when he wants to. (Additional advantage: You can have your phone at the table, but it can not be used for illegal messages, since your opponent will have it.)

Rik

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-12, 01:28, said:

My post was in response to your comment "You could, if you wanted, score on the back side of a previously-used convention card; then your current card and your scoresheet would be separate." as it seemed that you did not realize how people used their CC's and scoresheets here. Sorry if my use of the word "inseparable" caused you so much angst.

I do realise how CCs and scoresheets are used there, and I am also aware that it is not necessary. The exchange of CCs with the opponents in the normal way is very awkward if you are taking yours back after every auction and after every hand is played in order to write the score in it.

But whatever. You are boring me now.

[blackshoe]

Exchange of CCs with the opponents is not "the normal way" in the ACBL, as you well know, Stef.

You may be bored; that's no reason for being rude.

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2012-December-12, 10:11, said:

Exchange of CCs with the opponents is not "the normal way" in the ACBL, as you well know, Stef.

Yes, I do know that; but it is normal in most other places and is best. I meant that in the ACBL the "normal way" could be adopted.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2012-December-11, 20:05, said:

If you didn't mean it literally, it was hardly a valid or relevant comment. Why would you say "they are inseparable" when you meant to say "people choose to keep them together"? Was your cat running over your keyboard and causing gibberish to come out?

When you refer to a couple of people as "inseparable", do you mean they're Siamese twins?

It's true that this sense is normally reserved for people, not things, but it seemed clear in context that Jilly was using it metaphorically, since it's obvious that they are not physically inseparable. Or rather that the players in question treat them as if they're inseparable, even though they aren't really.

Whether Jilly knows they can be separated is not relevant, we're discussing what OTHER players do -- they don't separate them.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2012-December-12, 10:24, said:

Yes, I do know that; but it is normal in most other places and is best. I meant that in the ACBL the "normal way" could be adopted.

Lots of things "could be" done. But ACBL is an old dog, and teaching it new tricks is difficult. Minor changes to alert rules are just barely tolerated. Good luck trying to change ingrained habits of one of the largest group of bridge players.

[Trinidad]

 barmar, on 2012-December-12, 12:10, said:

Lots of things "could be" done. But ACBL is an old dog, and teaching it new tricks is difficult. Minor changes to alert rules are just barely tolerated. Good luck trying to change ingrained habits of one of the largest group of bridge players.

Wouldn't it help if the ACBL would at least give it a try? How about starting to print CC's without score cards? And score cards without CC's?

Rik

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2012-December-12, 10:24, said:

Yes, I do know that; but it is normal in most other places and is best. I meant that in the ACBL the "normal way" could be adopted.

Yes, in theory, it could. In practice, it's not going to happen. Not without an awful lot of effort and the backing of the ACBL. I don't much like that myself, but it is what it is.

[jillybean]

I don't see that having the score sheet on the reverse of the CC is the problem. Anyone other than perhaps a first time partnership will be using a new sheet for their score at each game.
I believe the mentality is that the CC is mine and the opponents should keep their hands off it. I've asked to look at an opponent’s CC, the request has obviously made the player uncomfortable and when I put the CC back they have picked it up and put it at the other side of the table, out my reach. Others hold onto it and "show" it to you.
These are the players who do not understand that the CC is for the opponents use.
Then there are the regular, experienced players who have have not entered their system information, may have 2/1 and LANDY scrawled over the card, or don't have one at all. And why should they bother, there is no reason to have a completed CC and they probably don't believe they are violating the regulations, everyone does it.

This is another regulation that I can add to my optional list.

[Vampyr]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-12, 16:23, said:

. I've asked to look at an opponent’s CC, the request has obviously made the player uncomfortable and when I put the CC back they have picked it up and put it at the other side of the table, out my reach. Others hold onto it and "show" it to you.

Don't give it back.