[akhare]

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We play 3N as showing a better hand with a long major suit.

[mgoetze]

The poll options seem to be quite limited... I'm not saying I would choose them but surely pass and 3♠ both merit some consideration?

[Fluffy]

I think I´d go with 1♠ since the aces lower the ODR, but it depends a bit on who opponents were.

[akhare]

mgoetze, on 2012-June-23, 15:15, said:

The poll options seem to be quite limited... I'm not saying I would choose them but surely pass and 3♠ both merit some consideration?

Fine -- added by popular demand ..

[straube]

1S. You have the spades, two defensive tricks, limited openers (strong club), and not a great suit. If your suit were hearts then ok. But what are you trying to accomplish here? A save or make at exactly the five level?

[mike777]

4s though something tells me 1s worked better at the table.

can live with 4s or 1s

never pass or 3s...

[akhare]

straube, on 2012-June-23, 15:23, said:

1S. You have the spades, two defensive tricks, limited openers (strong club), and not a great suit. If your suit were hearts then ok. But what are you trying to accomplish here? A save or make at exactly the five level?

IMO, I don't think 4♠ is that far out at this vul. Not sure I follow the save or make at the 5-level comment -- if pard bids 5♠ over their 5-level bid, it's probably right.

[mike777]

akhare, on 2012-June-23, 16:10, said:

IMO, I don't think 4♠ is that far out at this vul. Not sure I follow the save or make at the 5-level comment -- if pard can bid on at the 5♠ over their 5-level bids, it's probably right.

if 4s shows roughly 6 tricks you got your bid it seems.


pard should know you may often have a weakish 7-4 at this vul.

you can open 1s with more or even it seems playing your style 3nt with something more.


btw what does a typical "3nt" in spades look like at this vul, first seat for you and your pard?

[akhare]

mike777, on 2012-June-23, 16:12, said:

btw what does a typical "3nt" in spades look like at this vul, first seat for you and your pard?

Good question -- pretty much has to be a hand with 9 - 9.5 tricks (especially vul. vs. NV) with good 8 card suit or solid 7 card suit.

We haven't discussed specific holdings too much beyond expected loser count and at NV. vs. vul., pard should expect about 6 losers for a 4M opening.

[chasetb]

Because of the limited openers, I think 1♠ is the best option. Lately, I've been getting HORRIBLE results bidding these hands to the hilt (partners have been dropping tons of Queens and Jacks + length in their suits), so my current thinking is jumping is NOT so good. I don't blame the 4♠ opening, just I think 1♠ > 3♠ > 4♠ > Pass

[mike777]

well one may guess that presented as a problem we are going for 500 vs air


preempting in magazine/forum bidding quizzes never seem to wrk out.

[Phil]

4♠ gets doubled a lot. I have nice shape but A-empty suits are big red flags.

I'd open 1♠.

[Mbodell]

I've been partially persuaded by Rosenberg's arguments that preempts are not quite as good as many folks intuitively think. And here when you have 2 A and no intermediaries it is an awful hand to be preempting, since you could easily set them, with your great defense. If partner has something, you can still get to a spade game quite easily starting with 1♠.

[mike777]

I doubt getting to 4s when pard has only something is quite easy after 1s


with that said I can understand 1s or 4s.


if the point is dont open 4s with this holding ok.

[MrAce]

I dunno if i would but i think 4♠ is reasonable.

[straube]

akhare, on 2012-June-23, 16:46, said:

Good question -- pretty much has to be a hand with 9 - 9.5 tricks (especially vul. vs. NV) with good 8 card suit or solid 7 card suit.

We haven't discussed specific holdings too much beyond expected loser count and at NV. vs. vul., pard should expect about 6 losers for a 4M opening.

The following is from our notes. I'd expect some deviation based on vulnerability and whether we are preempting hearts or spades. Still, the notes are a starting place...

The opening of 3N shows an unspecified major with...
1. 8 1/2 or more tricks
2. an 8-cd suit (NOT a 7-cd suit because these are able to be relayed)

The opening of 4M promises
1. fewer than 8 1/2 tricks
2. usually an 8-cd suit

[gszes]

where is my flak jacket?? grumble i promised to never leave it far from me when
visiting the forum. I shall try and make a case for the meek.

The bidding wont end here and if it does the odds we have a game are
bound to be small so pass is unlikely to get us killed right from the get go.

4s the huge preempt at these colors seems to fascinate many but the suit
lacks body our hand may be playable in diamonds and even worse our
2 aces make slam bidding by the opps improbable. The 4s bid can indeed
work but it will work solely on hands where the opps can make 3n 4/5 hearts
or 5c. Now this seems like a rather small target to hope for when making
a bid since virtually any hand with play for 4s we will find anyway.

3s similar arguments to 4s though a tad safer. The aces will make any
competitive bidding by p problematical at best.

2s this hand fall a bit too far outide the normal 2s range in the wrong direction
(ie seems too much offensive potential). Opening this 2s will make any
decisions p makes about their hand almost gibberish.



1s this has the most potential to get the strain right (aside from pass) with
significantly less risk than 3s or 4s. The 2 aces might be a welcome sight
if the bidding becomes competitive and p wants to x we have nothing special
to fear. Why does it always have to be the opps hand???? When we decide
to open 1s is this a hand we want p to take into consideration before they
decide to move onto slam?? If p were to make a game forcing raise (say
J2n) how do we respond here?? These things should be taken into
consideration before deciding on a 1 level opener.

Pass has 2 simple disadvantages

1. The bidding might die and we lose out on a spade partial. This hurts but
is hardly a long term recipe for disaster.

2. We might lose out on some spall penalties in higly contested auctions
because p will be loathe to assume we have 2 aces for our passed hand.
Though we might be able to show a surprise defensive holding with a well
timed x ourselves.



A pass will still allow us to bid 4s later when we at least have a clue the opps
have a fit and a probable game somewhere. Our pass might also get the opps
to x us and our hand could contain a rather large offensive surprise.



This hand is a far cry from say Axxx x Axxxxxx x where opening 1d will probably
allow our side to compete in both dia and spades. Our current hand will almost
never allow dia to enter the picture if we open 1s (or any number of spades) so
it lacks flexibility.



IMO pass = 10 1s = 8 3s =5 4s=3 2s=(1.5)

[straube]

Glad you prefer 1S to 4S, but I'm not passing this hand. Remember we play limited openings and this hand definitely qualifies for an opening bid. This is a very different problem than for folks who standard openings.

Our style is to open opening hands and preempt preemptive hands. We don't pass for tactical reasons. In fact, in many instances, partner would not be able to pass and compete in spades without it being a fit showing bid.