[markyears]

I'm learning SAYC, and want to ask two bidding questions (The answers are inconsistent in some materials I have...)

1. For opener, can "reverses" be used to show maximum hand (19-21 points)? Or we have to use jump shift.
2. In 1♠-2♥-2nt, this 2nt means 13-14hcp or 18-19hcp?

Thanks!

[kriegel]

I've never played SAYC, but I can answer the first question. Reverses are unlimited, so they can include a game-forcing 19-21 point hand. The lower limit for a reverse is something that your partnership will have to decide on (17 or so is pretty common), but there is no upper bound besides the fact that you didn't open 2♣.

For example:
1♦ - 1♠
2♥ = roughly 17+ points, 5+ diamonds, 4 hearts (could be 6 diamonds, 5 hearts rarely), diamonds always longer than hearts

If responder makes a minimum bid, say 2NT, opener can pass or rebid his first suit with a "minimum" reverse (17-18 points) or he can force to game with some other bid.

You wouldn't use a jump shift into a higher-ranking suit to show a game-forcing hand.
1♦ - 1♠
3♥ would not be a strong hand with diamonds and hearts (that hand would make a reverse). The exact definition depends on partnership agreement and isn't something to worry about as a beginner.

However, a jump shift into a lower-ranking suit is natural and game-forcing, for example:
1♦ - 1♠
3♣ would show 19+ points and (usually) 5+ diamonds, 4+ clubs

I hope this helps.

[awm]

I agree with Kriegel's post on reverses.

The definition of 1♠-2♥-2NT is a bit murky in the SAYC document. It's suggested both that this 2NT call is forcing (because responder's two-level response in a new suit promises a rebid) and that it can be a minimum (cheapest available notrump rebid for opener). You basically have to ignore one of these two suggestions; otherwise you will get too high routinely on invitational hands opposite a minimum for opener.

I think most beginners play the 2NT rebid as not forcing, and bid it on a minimum opening. However, this is not a very good agreement because it forces opener to jump to 3NT (or make some other mis-descriptive forcing bid) on good hands. Much superior is to agree that 2NT shows 18-19, and that opener simply rebids two of his major on any minimum opening which cannot show a cheaper suit naturally. Keep in mind that 1♠-2♥-2♠ must be bid on minimums with spades and a minor (because a three-level minor bid is a reverse and shows extras), so it makes little difference to add minimum 5332 hands to the mix here as well. This helps a lot when opener has 18-19 (keeps the bidding a level lower on slam hands) while costing little to nothing on the minimums (you can still stop in 2NT if responder has an invite and bids it at next turn).

[Quantumcat]

A reverse, for example: 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♥ is unlimited. Auctions can sometimes get murky (neither partner knows if there are game values or not) but usually, rebidding a suit is non-forcing. For instance in the example auction, is responder rebids 2♠ then opener can pass with a 16-17 count and 2-card support, and if opener rebids 3♣ (showing 6 clubs and 4 hearts), responder can pass with 2 hearts and 2 clubs and a 5 or 6-count. To show a good hand and avoid partner passing, you can either jump in one of the suits you've shown, or bid fourth-suit-forcing (look it up on the forums - lots of explanations) and then bid the suit you want to show afterwards.

A jump-shift however, is used when your second suit would not be a reverse, and you have game-forcing values (a good 18 HCP or better). It is not simply "mildly strong" like a reverse. You have a SERIOUS hand. In the auction 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♣ opener can have up to a 17-count or bad 18-count. Responder should try and find a bid unless he is very weak, and he has a singleton in opener's first suit and a tripleton in his second. The usual default bid is putting opener back to his first suit. Opener can then show a 15-17 count by delayed support for responder's suit (with 12-14 and 3-card support he should raise immediately, not bid his second suit), or by rebidding one of his suits (to show an extra card) or bidding 2NT - although this will be rare unless playing a weak 1NT opening.

Jump-shifting into a suit that would have been a reverse simply does not exist. A lot of people have conventional meanings for such a bid (for instance - an invitational splinter).

A usual agreement for SAYC is that a 2 over 1 response is forcing to 2NT. Therefore with a good hand, you have to bid 3NT, not 2NT. But it also means you can rebid your suit at the 2-level, and not need to jump to show a good hand, and therefore waste lots of space, and it also means that in an auction like this you won't get forced to play in 3♥ or 3♠ without a fit, or in 3NT without sufficient values.

This is something to talk about with your partner, because it is not something set in stone.

[markyears]

Thank you all very much! I fully understand the first question now. For the second one, then I will treat the 2nt as a weak hand for now.

Now it seems to me that the agreement after 2 over 1 is not very clear in Sayc, including this 2nt agreement. May I ask a question in another hand? It is from the book "standard bidding with Sayc" I'm reading:
♠ A Q 10 9 8
♥ 7 4
♦ 3
♣ K Q J 8 7
The question is after 1♠-2♥, what should the opener rebid?

I understand 2nt is not a good bid because of the singleton. But for 3♣, the book says "in this situation a new suit at the three-level would be forcing to game". But I don't understand, in what situation? For example, in the sequence, 1♠-2♠-3♣, is an invitation not forcing to game, isn't it?

The correct bid recommended in the book is 2♠, in spite of the 5 cards only.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 http://www.bridgebas...everse-bidding/

#2 see awn's post

The core question is

Is responder allowed to pass, when the auction goes

1S - 2H
2S - ???

and the answer is not, can I see the hand to decide.

Of course SAYC has an official answer, but official answer
does not imply, that the answer is a common answer.

#3 A simple rule is, that a new suit introduced at the 3
level generates a game forcing bidding seq.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kriegel]

 markyears, on 2012-June-03, 12:01, said:

Thank you all very much! I fully understand the first question now. For the second one, then I will treat the 2nt as a weak hand for now.

Now it seems to me that the agreement after 2 over 1 is not very clear in Sayc, including this 2nt agreement. May I ask a question in another hand? It is from the book "standard bidding with Sayc" I'm reading:
♠ A Q 10 9 8
♥ 7 4
♦ 3
♣ K Q J 8 7
The question is after 1♠-2♥, what should the opener rebid?

I understand 2nt is not a good bid because of the singleton. But for 3♣, the book says "in this situation a new suit at the three-level would be forcing to game". But I don't understand, in what situation? For example, in the sequence, 1♠-2♠-3♣, is an invitation not forcing to game, isn't it?

The correct bid recommended in the book is 2♠, in spite of the 5 cards only.

It all comes down to the two core questions of bidding: "Where?" and "How High?" In the auction 1♠ - 2♠, you already know Where you are playing (spades), so the only question is How High. It makes sense, then to have bids at the 3-level show game interest, because with a hand that wanted to play game you could just jump to 4♠ (with slam interest, you'd do something else, but I'm not going to get into that).

The reason that 1♠ - 2♥; 3♣ is game forcing is you're still sorting out both Where and How High you will be playing - you might be in game or partscore in clubs, hearts, spades, or notrump. There is simply not enough room to determine your best strain and proper level if 1♠ - 2♥; 3♣ isn't game forcing. Hence, you need a bid for hands that can't force to game (like your example hand).

These hands must make what's called a "default" rebid, which simply says, "I don't have anything more meaningful to say." The standard default rebid in a two-over-one sequence (I know you don't play 2/1 Game Forcing, but this is still a two-over-one sequence) is 2 of opener's major. The sequence 1♠ - 2♥; 2♠ doesn't promise a 6-card suit. It only gives negative inferences - it's a hand that can't raise hearts, can't bid 2NT, and can't bid a minor on the 3-level. You might have 5 spades or you might have 7. Your next bid should clarify your hand.

P.S. I don't think responder can pass 1♠ - 2♥; 2♠ because responder is promising a rebid unless game has been reached.

[Quantumcat]

 markyears, on 2012-June-03, 12:01, said:

The question is after 1♠-2♥, what should the opener rebid?

I understand 2nt is not a good bid because of the singleton. But for 3♣, the book says "in this situation a new suit at the three-level would be forcing to game". But I don't understand, in what situation? For example, in the sequence, 1♠-2♠-3♣, is an invitation not forcing to game, isn't it?

The correct bid recommended in the book is 2♠, in spite of the 5 cards only.

Yes, 2♠ is the right bid. Rebidding at the 3-level is gameforcing, and shows at least a good 15 or 16.

The reason is, you don't want to have used up all that room (1♠ 2♥ 3♣) if you have not yet answered either of the two basic questions - how high do we want to bid, and what suit do we want to play in? You have to have a strong hand, so that the first question is answered (you know how high you want to bid - at least game) so the partnership can relax about finding the right suit.

In the sequence 1♠ 2♠ 3♣, the partnership has already decided where they want to play, the only question is how high. So it's ok to have used up space, you only have one question to answer now.

[mikl_plkcc]

Why don't opener bids 2NT if he doesn't have more to say?

1♠ - 2♥ (5+ ♥)
Shouldn't a hand unable to bid at the 3-level bid 2NT? Partner would easily raise the 2♠ to 4♠ holding 2♠s only, which is a disaster! (a 2/1 response denies support)

[ArtK78]

 mikl_plkcc, on 2012-June-07, 04:50, said:

Why don't opener bids 2NT if he doesn't have more to say?

1♠ - 2♥ (5+ ♥)
Shouldn't a hand unable to bid at the 3-level bid 2NT? Partner would easily raise the 2♠ to 4♠ holding 2♠s only, which is a disaster! (a 2/1 response denies support)

No, responder should not raise 2♠ to 4♠ holding 2 spades only, because opener has not shown 6 spades by his rebid.

The 2♠ rebid is known as a "mark-time" bid. It promises nothing - no extra strength, no extra length - only the inability to make any other call.

2NT should not be bid here with a minimum opening, because responder has only promised 10 HCP but has promised to make another call. Since responder must make another call, if opener bids 2NT with a minimum, the partnership cannot play in 2NT, which may be the right spot. So opener, with a balanced minimum, must rebid 2♠. That doesn't mean that the 2♠ rebid shows a balanced minimum. It is just one of the possible hands that would bid 2♠. Over 2♠, responder can bid 2NT with a balanced minimum, and opener can pass with a balanced minimum opening.

Another point - a 2/1 response does not deny support. In fact, one of the nice things about a 2/1 response is that it allows responder to show a very good hand with support and a good suit on the side. For example, the sequence 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠ should show a game forcing hand with 3 or more spades and 5 or more hearts. I am assuming that the partnership does not play 3♠ in this sequence as invitational. With an invitational hand, responder should have made a limit raise initially.

The foregoing is by no means clear from the information found in the ACBL SAYC System Booklet. In fact, after 1 of a major - 2 of a minor, a rebid of 2NT does show a minimum hand. Personally, I think this method is unplayable if the 2/1 bid promises a rebid unless a 2/1 in a minor is game forcing.

[blackshoe]

I would not be at all surprised if experts consider some of the methods in SAYC to be "unplayable".

I agree with the Hideous Hog: "No, I don't know Precision, but I do know Standard American, and what better reason could I have for playing Precision?"

[ArtK78]

 blackshoe, on 2012-June-07, 07:03, said:

I would not be at all surprised if experts consider some of the methods in SAYC to be "unplayable".

I agree with the Hideous Hog: "No, I don't know Precision, but I do know Standard American, and what better reason could I have for playing Precision?"

I know that you are not confusing Standard American with SAYC. Standard American does not have these flaws.

[blackshoe]

 ArtK78, on 2012-June-07, 08:07, said:

I know that you are not confusing Standard American with SAYC. Standard American does not have these flaws.

Not all of them, no.

[Quantumcat]

 ArtK78, on 2012-June-07, 06:08, said:

the sequence 1♠ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠ should show a game forcing hand with 3 or more spades and 5 or more hearts.

I have always played that as invitational with 3-card support (1♠-3♠ would show 4-card support).
I would also have played a 2NT rebid by opener as non-forcing (the 2/1 response is forcing to 2NT).

Just goes to show, that these questions don't have any black and white answers. What is best is to write out ALL the auctions you are not sure about, show them to your partner, and ask him or her what THEIR interpretation is. Then play by what they said, and you won't get anything wrong at the table. When you play with someone else, make sure to ask those questions again, since everybody has their own habits.

[Vampyr]

 ArtK78, on 2012-June-07, 06:08, said:

In fact, after 1 of a major - 2 of a minor, a rebid of 2NT does show a minimum hand. Personally, I think this method is unplayable if the 2/1 bid promises a rebid unless a 2/1 in a minor is game forcing.

I think that the assumption is that a 2NT rebid by opener cancels responder's obligation to bid again.

[perko90]

2/1 auctions can be tough with SAYC. There's good reason most advanced+ players prefer 2/1. Nonetheless, there's some things you can do to make it easier. Here's some of my tips from when I used to play it:

1) Do not include 3-card limit raises in your 2/1 response. It makes some auctions nearly impossible. Almost any other agreement is better! Options for what to do w/ the 3-card limit raise:
-- allow 1M-3M to be either 3 or 4 card support
-- play forcing or semi-forcing NT and tuck the 3-card LR into the 1NT response
-- (recommended) use a modified Bergen Raise structure, where, in response to 1M, 3♣ = 3-card LR, 3♦ = 4-card LR, 3M = 4-card weak raise
2) Any rebid of 2NT by either side is weak and is an offer to play (Sorry, while 2/1'ers can fit the bal 18-19 in the 2NT rebids, I do not recommend it for SAYC. Rebid 3NT. Yes, it's a little clumsy, but it's rare, a tightly defined range (denying support for ptr's 2/1 suit), and can get you by for now)
3) I used the following agreement for opener's rebid for years and it worked quite well: 2NT = 12-14 (5-3-3-2) w/ at least partial stoppers in the unbid suits (too hard to promise full stoppers, but at least you'll right-side the NT contracts); a new suit below 2 of your original suit is just shape showing and can be a bare min, but should be 4+ cards; rebidding your suit should be a 6+ suit or a good 5-carder; bidding at the 3 level (whether in a new suit or raising ptr's minor shows some extras (enough to force to game opposite a min 2/1 response). And if you don't have any of the above (rare!), find the nearest lie. Bottom line, it's more useful for ptr to bid assuming the above agreements rather than worry about the rare times when you have to stretch the meanings.
4) Consider using 1M-2NT as natural and game-forcing (15+ HCPs). This takes a lot of pressure off your 2/1 responses! Yes, yes, I know everyone and their Grandmother plays Jacoby 2NT, but you don't have to. Instead of Jacoby 2NT raise, you can substitute 1M-3NT to show a balanced 4-card raise worth 13-15 pts (there's a nice bonus of not disclosing opener's distribution when game is the limit of the hand). With a stronger hand you can start w/ a 2/1 and then support opener's major at a low level (usually indicating extra strength (even tho opener won't be able to tell the diff between 3 and 4 card support)). Without a good way to describe a balanced hand w/ extras, even simple auctions can be problematic in SAYC. Consider a responding 17 HCP hand with 2=4=3=4 distribution. The auction goes 1♠-2♣; 2♠-?? Now what? 2NT would show 11 HCPs or so and be non-forcing. And a jump to 3NT should be around 13-14 HCPs. A natural 2NT makes it easier on ptr: rebidding your major now promises 6 and bidding 3m should only be done w/ extra values/shape. If you still want to play Jacoby 2NT, consider making 1M-3NT 15-17 or so with xx in the major. The point is, balanced responding hands of around 16 HCPs are hard to bid in SAYC and you should be ready for them.
5) The only times you should stop short of at least 3NT is when either ptr bids 2NT, opener rebids their suit twice (1M-2X; 2M-2Any; 3M), or the 2/1 bidder rebids their suit (Ex. 1♠-2♣; 2♦-3♣)
6) if either ptr bids 2NT and the other takes it out, the auction is now game-forcing! (Ex. 1♠-2♣; 2NT-3♣ ... even tho the 2/1 bidder rebid their suit cheaply, this rule takes priority)

Unfortunately, the above tips don't fill all the weaknesses of Std Am 2/1 bidding. But fortunately, whenever you discover a weakness accidentally, it's usually a good learning experience and topic of discussion.

[blackshoe]

IMO the best way to deal with all the weaknesses of Standard American is to play Precision. Or Romex.