when is a reverse not a reverse? is this a reverse?
#1
Posted 2012-May-11, 11:01
Mike C
#2
Posted 2012-May-11, 11:16
I'll take a leap of faith, and assume you meant "opened 1H" and "opened 1C" where you wrote "bid 1H", "bid 1D". Going on that assumption... I think it would depend on partnership agreement, particularly about the X. I play the X as showing 4+ hearts, so 2H here would show a minimum with 4-card heart support, 3H would be reverse-type strength with hearts, 2D would be a natural reverse and "everything else" has to bid 1NT or 2C.
One can think of this treatment as pretending partner bid 1H - you're simply making the same rebids as opener as in 1C-p-1H-p. So along those lines, if you play the X as definitely showing 4+ in both diamonds and hearts, then I wouldn't treat 2D as a reverse.
ahydra
#3
Posted 2012-May-11, 12:22
ahydra, on 2012-May-11, 11:16, said:
I'll take a leap of faith, and assume you meant "opened 1H" and "opened 1C" where you wrote "bid 1H", "bid 1D". Going on that assumption... I think it would depend on partnership agreement, particularly about the X. I play the X as showing 4+ hearts, so 2H here would show a minimum with 4-card heart support, 3H would be reverse-type strength with hearts, 2D would be a natural reverse and "everything else" has to bid 1NT or 2C.
One can think of this treatment as pretending partner bid 1H - you're simply making the same rebids as opener as in 1C-p-1H-p. So along those lines, if you play the X as definitely showing 4+ in both diamonds and hearts, then I wouldn't treat 2D as a reverse.
ahydra
#6
Posted 2012-May-11, 14:39
Yes, it's possible - even probable - that partner doesn't have diamonds, but that's the theory.
#7
Posted 2012-May-11, 14:50
The consensus is that a 2♦ rebid shows extra values consistent with a reverse. If opener did not have extra values, he would rebid 1NT or 2♣. Or he would have opened 1♦ originally with 4-5 in the minors.
#8
Posted 2012-May-11, 17:09
For the majority of the players (at least here) it does not, because the double promised the unbid suits.
So: Ask your partner about this sequence and tell him what experts do here.
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#9
Posted 2012-May-11, 20:49
#10
Posted 2012-May-11, 20:51
A recent "It's your call" touching on the same situation in the ACBL Bulletin showed only one of the umpteen experts believed 2D showed "reverse" strength. I was shocked.
1C (1S) X (P)
2D....should not only show extra playing strength, but should also bring Lebensohl into the mix of continuations by responder.
Obviously this does not apply to heart rebids by opener, since that is a suit he is merely raising as if responder had bid 1H without the interference.
#11
Posted 2012-May-11, 21:40
If 17+ I would open 1♣ planning a reverse to 2♦.
An intervening bid and X does not change anything, and I have no reason to expect partner to have ♦ for his X.
X shows ♥.
Perhaps, someone would care to post some examples of minimums that would bid this way.
#12
Posted 2012-May-12, 09:42
The experts in the Bulletin may be right. We don't need full reverse (18) to bid 2♦ but I don't think they would do it on 12. It would be nice to have more information.
#13
Posted 2012-May-12, 09:52
Quote
Good point
Apparently this simple logic eludes some "experts"...
#14
Posted 2012-May-12, 11:20
bluecalm, on 2012-May-12, 09:52, said:
Apparently this simple logic eludes some "experts"...
A number of experts not in the US play that double shows both unbid therefore 2♦ shows no extras.
I'm not sure what "playing natural" in the OP means, but if it means 4+ clubs, I would expect the X to show both unbid. Playing Acol, many people with 4♥/4♣ open 1♥ so showing only ♥ is nothing like as useful as it is when 1♣ is 2+.
#15
Posted 2012-May-12, 12:17
Quote
It comes down to what 'expert' means but this is very bad agreement and nobody good at this game plays it these days.
#16
Posted 2012-May-12, 13:55
bluecalm, on 2012-May-12, 12:17, said:
OK, nobody in the UK is any good then as many people play it here, although I suspect the number is decreasing as more move over to a 2+ card club. As I said if the club is natural in a weak no trump Acol 4 card major type system, it's very sensible to play it as both suits (in fact this system has some issues if you don't as we never open 4-5 in the minors 1♦).
#17
Posted 2012-May-12, 14:16
Quote
That argument doesn't contradict what I said. Most people are bad at bridge so just because "many people play it" doesn't mean that "nobody good plays it" doesn't hold true
Again it comes down to definition of good. I meant players who compete at highest international level.
There is literally no one (at least no one regularly appearing in big events late stages) who passes say:
xxx AKxx Kx xxxx if it goes:
1C - 1S - ?
Passing is just weak bridge if opponents have any aggression in them you will regularly miss very good heart games.
If you bid 2C it's equally bad for the same reason (your not good enough to double later at 3 level).
Same goes for weakier hands, say: xxx AKxx xx xxxx and two level.
#18
Posted 2012-May-12, 14:34
bluecalm, on 2012-May-12, 14:16, said:
Again it comes down to definition of good. I meant players who compete at highest international level.
There is literally no one (at least no one regularly appearing in big events late stages) who passes say:
xxx AKxx Kx xxxx if it goes:
1C - 1S - ?
Passing is just weak bridge if opponents have any aggression in them you will regularly miss very good heart games.
No I raise clubs inverted F1 not denying 4M.
Actually I have no fear of doubling on this hand and then bidding 3♣ over 2♦ if not playing my style of inverted minors.
#19
Posted 2012-May-12, 15:44
Quote
What about 4-4-2-3 ?
Say: xxxx AKxx Qx xxx ?
Still, you lose hearts if it goes something like:
1C - 1S - 2C - 3S
Because now you need a double for extras and 4-4 heart fit is lost forever.
#20
Posted 2012-May-12, 16:44
Cyberyeti, on 2012-May-12, 13:55, said:
Do they? I can't say I've encountered them.
London UK