[SimonFa]

It was GIB but as a general rule is 2C here forcing?

P (P) 1D (1H)
2C*

GIB describes 2C here as "Free bid 5+ Clubs 11-HCP 11-12 points forcing".

Surely its up to opener to decide here?

Simon

[JLOGIC]

No, since responder is limited from his pass 2C is not forcing

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Standard is surely - 2C is nonforcing, but you can agree, to play it as
forcing.

The given seq. had a 3rd level opener involved, and a change of suit
after an overcall.
An easier discussion is it, if we make this an opening in 4th, e.g.
a more common scenario

Pass - 1D
1H - ...

Is opener allowed to pass?

In the end, you can argue opening 1 in a suit promises another bid,
if responder bids a new suit.
In other words - 1H is not forcing, but opener promised to bid again.

Also your opening style matters.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gszes]

please don't try to learn bidding from robots ackkk

2c is NF yet highly encouraging but opener knows you
are a passed hand and may choose to pass. Try to limit
your passes as opener to really bad minimums especially
in the majors. Remember that p may have a 6 card suit there
and couldn't bid a weak 2 due to quality or vulnerability.

[SimonFa]

Thanks all.

Don't worry, I ignore GIB instructions in these positions but I just wondered if I had missed something somewhere and that particular sequence was forcing.

Simon

[mikl_plkcc]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-May-11, 09:04, said:

Hi,

Standard is surely - 2C is nonforcing, but you can agree, to play it as
forcing.

The given seq. had a 3rd level opener involved, and a change of suit
after an overcall.
An easier discussion is it, if we make this an opening in 4th, e.g.
a more common scenario

Pass - 1D
1H - ...

Is opener allowed to pass?

I would certainly pass with 11 HCPs and 4 ♥s, as game is unlikely. (responder cannot have 12 HCPs and usually 5- ♥s, otherwise, he would have preempted)

[inquiry]

This raises a question that happens sometimes.... Assume no discussion, playing with an advanced or higher player.... what would you take 2D as on this auction?

Pass - 1C
1H ---- 1S
2D

Fourth suit "forcing" hence not promising diamonds,
good diamond/heart two suiter, not willing to go quietly with 1NT or 2NT

[Bbradley62]

gszes, on 2012-May-11, 10:04, said:

Remember that p may have a 6 card suit there and couldn't bid a weak 2 due to quality or vulnerability.

... or because opening 2♣ is not a weak 2 in your system...

[Zelandakh]

inquiry, on 2012-May-17, 12:27, said:

This raises a question that happens sometimes.... Assume no discussion, playing with an advanced or higher player.... what would you take 2D as on this auction?

Pass - 1C
1H ---- 1S
2D

Is the traditional meaning not a 2NT rebid (max pass) without a diamond stop?

[Quantumcat]

If bids by a passed hand can be forcing, then you are no longer allowed to open sub-minimum hands in 3rd seat - don't want to end in 2NT with 11 HCP opposite 7!

[Codo]

It is surely not as easy as this. Of course you must have forcing bids avaiable- but not in misfit auctions.

For the questions: Gibs 2 ♣ is nonforcing but construtive, Bens 2 ♦ would doubtless be 4sf to me.

[Fluffy]

inquiry, on 2012-May-17, 12:27, said:

This raises a question that happens sometimes.... Assume no discussion, playing with an advanced or higher player.... what would you take 2D as on this auction?

Pass - 1C
1H ---- 1S
2D

Fourth suit "forcing" hence not promising diamonds,
good diamond/heart two suiter, not willing to go quietly with 1NT or 2NT

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-18, 07:58, said:

Is the traditional meaning not a 2NT rebid (max pass) without a diamond stop?

2♦ is an invitational hand with 5 hearts normally, a 2NT rebid basically.

[helene_t]

Quantumcat, on 2012-May-21, 23:52, said:

If bids by a passed hand can be forcing, then you are no longer allowed to open sub-minimum hands in 3rd seat - don't want to end in 2NT with 11 HCP opposite 7!

A 7-count wouldn't make a freebid at the 2-level. But yeah, responder could have 9 points.

[inquiry]

Codo, on 2012-May-22, 01:37, said:

It is surely not as easy as this. Of course you must have forcing bids avaiable- but not in misfit auctions.

For the questions: Gibs 2 ♣ is nonforcing but construtive, Bens 2 ♦ would doubtless be 4sf to me.

Traditionally, 4th suit forcing is off by a passed hand, so having it be 4th suit forcing would be a "special agreement" that would require prior agreement I would think.

[Quantumcat]

helene_t, on 2012-May-22, 02:00, said:

A 7-count wouldn't make a freebid at the 2-level. But yeah, responder could have 9 points.

No, opener has 7 points. Responder has 11 points, bids a suit and then 2NT, showing an invitational hand.

If responses by a passed hand were non-forcing, then opener can pass responder's bid, and not end up in 2NT. But if they were forcing, 3rd seat can no longer open sub-minimum hands, they need to have full opening values.

[Codo]

inquiry, on 2012-May-22, 07:32, said:

Traditionally, 4th suit forcing is off by a passed hand, so having it be 4th suit forcing would be a "special agreement" that would require prior agreement I would think.

I honestly don't know what is standard in the world. Here I guess it would be around 80/20 for 4sf. It sounds extremly useless to use it differently. Espacially in an enviroment where many people open weak two suiters...

[Codo]

Quantumcat, on 2012-May-22, 22:03, said:

No, opener has 7 points. Responder has 11 points, bids a suit and then 2NT, showing an invitational hand.

If responses by a passed hand were non-forcing, then opener can pass responder's bid, and not end up in 2NT. But if they were forcing, 3rd seat can no longer open sub-minimum hands, they need to have full opening values.

If your partner opens in 3. seat with 7 HCPS, you should be aware of this and stop bidding up to 2 NT with 11 HCPS.

[Zelandakh]

inquiry, on 2012-May-22, 07:32, said:

Traditionally, 4th suit forcing is off by a passed hand

Codo, on 2012-May-23, 01:36, said:

I honestly don't know what is standard in the world. Here I guess it would be around 80/20 for 4sf.

Traditionally, statements made by Americans about standards refer to American standards. In America I believe it is indeed standard for 4th suit forcing to be off by a passed hand. In Europe there does not seem to be a standard. I could be wrong but this seems to reflect a more general trend where the 4th suit in American systems is often used to either establish a game force or to be natural once a game force is established. Europeans seem much more likely to use the 4th suit at the 2 level with (some) invitational hands and for it to be a probing bid rather than natural in game-forcing auctions.