[kgr]

IMP's

---

I could have opened 2C mini-precission (weak with 6c♣ or with 5c♣ and 4cM), but I didn't even consider it (probably sleeping). If I would have considered it then probably I would not have done it with the void and 2 Aces.
I did only bid 4♣ because North can have a 2c♣; unlikely after the bidding but still possible with a weak 4432.
Do you think that the Neg-DBL is ok to start with?
How to reach 6♣?

[ahydra]

I agree with the neg-dbl, but not sure about 4C and 5C... however, hard to say what I would have done differently. Is 4C forcing here?

ahydra

[ArtK78]

Asking how you can get to 6♣ on this hand is a bit much. North can never envision slam opposite a passed hand.

Your only realistic chance of getting to 6♣ is if EW pushes you into it.

By the way, if you are defending some number of spades (or hearts) you had better lead diamonds before losing the lead. EW have a lot of major suit winners.

[kgr]

ahydra, on 2012-May-09, 10:45, said:

Is 4C forcing here?

4 minor is almost always forcing for us and showing slam interest, but not here. (passed hand and competitive bidding)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

South is a passed hand, so North is taking a chance on even finding partner with 2 bullets needed to make 5C.
North knows his partner is short in ♠ from his holding and opps' bidding ♠, but he is not sure of a void.

[mikeh]

Would partner ever open 1♥ on a 4 bagger in 3rd?

I love 1♣ on 4=4=3=2, but not in 3rd or 4th: I don't think that the systemic gains, even playing transfer responses, are worth it.

However, I assume from the fact that 1♣ could still be a doubleton, that there is a very live possibility of a 4 card heart suit, and a doubleton club. In that case, the negative double seems clear.

As for reaching 6♣, not a hope in hell.

Btw, I see that you play a form of precision in 1st and 2nd but std in 3rd...interestingly, you might have been better served here with staying with precision all the way: now S has an easy splinter (and with extras!) after a 2♣ opening, assuming either the overcall or a splinter being available absent competition.

[kgr]

mikeh, on 2012-May-09, 13:01, said:

Would partner ever open 1♥ on a 4 bagger in 3rd?

No. (I think this is very seldom in Belgium)

mikeh, on 2012-May-09, 13:01, said:

...
Btw, I see that you play a form of precision in 1st and 2nd but std in 3rd...interestingly, you might have been better served here with staying with precision all the way: now S has an easy splinter (and with extras!) after a 2♣ opening, assuming either the overcall or a splinter being available absent competition.

We play normal 5c Major and mini-precision. 2C opening is max 10 pts.

[aguahombre]

kgr, on 2012-May-09, 13:40, said:

We play normal 5c Major and mini-precision. 2C opening is max 10 pts.

Not sure what "mini" Precision entails, but if you play a forcing club system, using 2C as a weak-2 creates a gaping hole in your structure/a tremendous extra burden on the 1D opening bid. You might want to rethink that "max 10 pts" for a 2C opener.

[kgr]

aguahombre, on 2012-May-09, 13:51, said:

Not sure what "mini" Precision entails, but if you play a forcing club system, using 2C as a weak-2 creates a gaping hole in your structure/a tremendous extra burden on the 1D opening bid. You might want to rethink that "max 10 pts" for a 2C opener.

We don't play a forcing club system. The name mini-precision is probably confusing. It is only the 2C opener that we play as weak replacing the strong 2C (and we play multi 2D and Transfer preempts for the strong hands).

[Cyberyeti]

This is the usual "we opened a 2 card club and couldn't sort out our club fit" type of hand, a price you pay for the benefits you get when you don't open 1♣ or when there's no opposition bidding.

P-(P)-1♣-(1♠)-3♠ ... is nice and easy in a natural club system say 4♣-4♦-4♥-4♠-6♣, we could also bid 1♣-(1♠)-2♣ still inverted F1 not denying 4♥.

I would probably have opened the south hand 1♣ which would have woken partner up (particularly in the system I play, where I've got 5 of them or 15 points unless exactly 4414).

In your auction, I think you have to get the hearts into the auction, as they look the most likely route to game if partner has a weak no trump type, xxxx, AKxx, Kx, Kxx is far from impossible, so the negative double looks reasonable.

I think your hand is an absolute monster once spades get raised aggressively, but you don't have a good way of showing it as you have no clue what denomination you're playing in, 4♣ is pretty much forced as you know very little about partner's hand.

Blame the system for this one and move on, you'll have a lot of company.

[rmnka447]

How about continuing with a second DBL instead of bidding 4 ♣? You could have as few as 6 value for your original Negative Double. The original Negative Double also pretty much denied ability to penalize a ♠ contract in the first place. So the second double is card showing telling partner your side has the balance of the points. Partner could also still have 4 ♥s but was unable to bid on because of the ambiguousness regarding the strength of your original Neg. Dbl.

Partner would undoubtedly bid 4 ♣ and you could continue with a 4 ♠ cue showing the control and agreeing ♣s. After that, it's up to partner to push you further toward slam. Unfortunately, I don't think your partner will move further than game with the hand held. But I think this line of bidding gives you a chance for slam to be bid if partner has a slightly stronger holding -- say maybe ♥ A instead of the ♥ Q.

[Cyberyeti]

rmnka447, on 2012-May-10, 01:25, said:

How about continuing with a second DBL instead of bidding 4 ♣? You could have as few as 6 value for your original Negative Double. The original Negative Double also pretty much denied ability to penalize a ♠ contract in the first place. So the second double is card showing telling partner your side has the balance of the points. Partner could also still have 4 ♥s but was unable to bid on because of the ambiguousness regarding the strength of your original Neg. Dbl.

Partner would undoubtedly bid 4 ♣ and you could continue with a 4 ♠ cue showing the control and agreeing ♣s. After that, it's up to partner to push you further toward slam. Unfortunately, I don't think your partner will move further than game with the hand held. But I think this line of bidding gives you a chance for slam to be bid if partner has a slightly stronger holding -- say maybe ♥ A instead of the ♥ Q.

It works in this case, but you'll be sitting 3♠x on hands you really don't want to far too often, what do you expect partner to do with Q10xx, Q, KQx, KJxxx ? if he pulls, you'll have J, KJxxx, Jxxx, Axx.

[Zelandakh]

You missed a 20 point (ignoring the ♥Q) magic fit slam on a hand type which is problemtatic for the system you are playing and where the opps preempted you quickly to 3♠. Just what sort of blame do you think there is to assign?

[kgr]

Zelandakh, on 2012-May-10, 05:08, said:

You missed a 20 point (ignoring the ♥Q) magic fit slam on a hand type which is problemtatic for the system you are playing and where the opps preempted you quickly to 3♠. Just what sort of blame do you think there is to assign?

Thanks, making me feel better
...my reasoning was: we missed a lay down slam

[rmnka447]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-May-10, 02:48, said:

It works in this case, but you'll be sitting 3♠x on hands you really don't want to far too often, what do you expect partner to do with Q10xx, Q, KQx, KJxxx ? if he pulls, you'll have J, KJxxx, Jxxx, Axx.

If he pulls it, I won't be sitting J KJxxx Jxx Axx because I'm passing with that hand. With the actual hand we're discussing, I'm content if partner partner sits for 3♠x because it certainly looks like it has at least 2 defensive tricks. The hand has significantly increased in value because of the opponent's bidding.

Opposite the terrible opener you quoted, Q10xx Q KQx KJxxx, with the actual hand held, 3 ♠ may not fare so well.

[Cyberyeti]

rmnka447, on 2012-May-10, 11:32, said:

If he pulls it, I won't be sitting J KJxxx Jxx Axx because I'm passing with that hand. With the actual hand we're discussing, I'm content if partner partner sits for 3♠x because it certainly looks like it has at least 2 defensive tricks. The hand has significantly increased in value because of the opponent's bidding.

Opposite the terrible opener you quoted, Q10xx Q KQx KJxxx, with the actual hand held, 3 ♠ may not fare so well.

This smacks of extreme resulting, partner is not bidding over 3♠ with some hands that will play very well opposite J, KJxxx, Jxx, Axx (xxx, Q10x, KQ, KQxxx is an example). I can't imagine not taking action with a 10 count and a stiff (non K/Q) spade.

If Q10xx, Q, KQx, KJxxx is a terrible opener, you don't open enough, and I think 3♠ is making an overtrick nearly as often as it's going off opposite that, and it's very unlikely to go more than one off.

[gszes]

after the 4c bid (up to now a reasonable auction) opener
can envision slam (p has at least 5c and 4h and rates to
be very short in spades) but there are no tools that can
"safely" be used to investigate a club slam. Missing an
ice cold slam is not a horrendous disaster when it is
one based on huge distribution. Bidding was reasonable
by both partners keep up the good work.