[Jinksy]

This question is with the Fantunes style bids in mind, but seems like an issue in regular 2/1 as well.

Assuming you're not playing Kaplan Inversions, and you have a 45xx distribution with just too little for a reverse/other strong bid. What do you do with the hand after 1H P 1N?

Going via Gazzilli doesn't seem crazy, except that most descriptions of it seem to imply that it doesn't contain this sort of hand.

I was investigating Kaplan inversions, but I'm not too thrilled with them in their own right, since it seems like a fair loss at IMPs and a big one at MPs not to be able to have the sequence 1H P 1S P 1N PPP...

Does Gazz just not work without them, or am I missing something?

[BunnyGo]

Sorry this is a little tangential, but I don't understand why Kaplan inversion removes the sequence

1♥-1♠*
1NT-AP

Especially with unbounded opening bids, responder has met his forcing obligation with 1♠ and now opener has bounded his hand, why can't responder pass?

In answer to your question, if you're not going to play a kaplan inversion, you can "lie" and do the standard 2/1 response of 1C with possibly 2 in this sequence or "lie" and open these hands 1NT or "lie" and just pass 1NT. I think that depending on the hand and partnership understandings, these are all reasonable responses.

[Free]

It's actually quite simple. When 1NT is (semi)forcing, then you have to do something with a max 4=5=2=2. When playing natural, you bid 2♣. When playing Gazzilli, I prefer to sacrifice the ♣ suit all together and make the 2♦ rebid more natural, because you can't play 2♣ anyway... This means 2♣ followed by 2M shows only 2+♣, while 2♦ promises a 4 card suit. The only exception where 2♦ is not a 4 card suit is 4=5=3=1, but then the singleton compensates for the lack of a 4th ♦. With 4=5=1=3 2♣ is clear. With 4=5=2=2 I suggest you just rebid 2♣ and deal with it. Same goes for max 3=5=3=2 btw, with a max you need to find a rebid, so go via Gazzilli and don't ruin your 2♦ rebid.

If you want to have better options after a (semi)forcing 1NT, play Kaplan Inversion or (dare I say it?) Flannery. But you still have the issues with max 5332's. So better is imo to play Gazzilli as 2+♣, and 2♦ as (3)4+♦.

[Jinksy]

Free: Ok, that seems fine to me as long as there's no hidden reason why bidding Gazzilli on that type of hand doesn't work.

Even if I didn't need 2D as natural for Fantunes, I'm wouldn't touch Flannery with a bargepole. But what's your rebid over the 2D positive? With a 15 or bad 16 count in regular 2/1 or a 17-bad 18 in Fantunes, don't you still have to rebid 2H? Or is the idea that having done so (not passed the semiforcing bid) you've effectively made your invite and given the known absence of a 4-4 spade fit you can retire?

BunnyGo: That works if you play KI 1S denying as many as 4S, but in the standard version it can have up to 4, so now the 1N bid has to show 4S so that you don't miss your 4-4 part. I think it's still NF, but now it's less likely to be the right part and you won't be able to bid it as often anyway

The problem I have with 1S as three or fewer Ss (maybe there are other issues) is that I think responder will have 4 more often than not, conditional on him not having 3 Hs for you, so you'll actually get to play in 1N less often when it's the right part - and now you don't have the wherewithal to find 5-3 S fits/avoid 4-3 ones, which I think was the idea of KIs in the first place.

[Free]

In Fantunes, the minimum range is 14-17, with 18+ you are strong. Responder is strong with 6+HCP.
In standard, the minimum range is 12-15, with 16+ you are strong. Responder is strong with 8+HCP.
These are completely similar, so Fantunes hasn't got anything to do with how Gazzilli works.

The interesting part of Gazzilli is that it gives responder an extra round of bidding to invite after 1M-1X-2♣-2♦-2M. So you don't have to be afraid of bidding 2M with 16-17HCP in Fantunes, because responder with 8-9 will invite after this. But if he has 6-7, he can pass and you comfortably play 2M with around 23HCP.

The 1NT being forcing or not has only a small impact. With forcing NT, you just have to describe what you have, even with minimum hands. With semi-forcing or non-forcing NT, you'll only go through Gazzilli with short ♣ if you have 16-17HCP.

[awm]

I don't think Gazzilli really has much bearing on this problem.

The idea is just that after 1M-1NT (or 1♥-1♠), if you have a strong hand in terms of high card points, you rebid 2♣. Otherwise you make your normal rebid, with the exception of shapely hands with a lot of playing strength which can now make use of the freed up jump shifts and 2NT rebid. The 2♣ rebid thus becomes forcing one round (since it could be artificial). Playing 2/1, your normal rebid with 4513 is 2♣, with 4531 is 2♦, and with 4522 is 2♣ (in all cases assuming too weak to reverse). Obviously this creates some amount of problems (especially in the last case), but that's part of the price you pay for the advantages of 2/1 forcing to game. Playing Gazzilli you make the same rebids.

With that said, there is some advantage to play 1M-1NT-2♦ as 4+♦, and letting 2♣ be "clubs or balanced" as Free suggests. You can play this in "regular" 2/1 or using Gazzilli.

[han]

We play gazilly and bid 1H - 1NT - 2S with about 14-15 points and at least 4-6 in the majors.

[fromageGB]

When I played a natural 4+ 2♦ rebid I played 2♣ as either weaker with clubs, weaker with balanced hand, or any strong (Gazzilli) and the replies to the 2♦ differentiated between them. We treated an opening 45xx as balanced (after all, responder is not interested in your 4 spades).

With a partner playing KI, over 1♥ 1♠ we played 1NT as maybe including 4 spades, with a 2♣ inquiry (but weaker hands than would bid 2♣ which can again include 4 spades.)

I was not aware that a strong 2♣ rebid showed a minimum number of clubs, or a maximum number of spades - we certainly didn't play it that way.

[Free]

 fromageGB, on 2011-November-19, 15:25, said:

I was not aware that a strong 2♣ rebid showed a minimum number of clubs, or a maximum number of spades - we certainly didn't play it that way.

It doesn't, where do you get that from?

[fromageGB]

"I was not aware that a strong 2♣ rebid showed a minimum number of clubs, or a maximum number of spades - we certainly didn't play it that way."

 Free, on 2011-November-21, 03:27, said:

It doesn't, where do you get that from?

- minimum number of clubs?

 Free, on 2011-November-13, 02:55, said:

<snip> So better is imo to play Gazzilli as 2+♣, </endsnip>

- maximum number of spades ?

 Jinksy, on 2011-November-12, 17:18, said:

<snip> Assuming you're not playing Kaplan Inversions, and you have a 45xx distribution with just too little for a reverse/other strong bid. What do you do with the hand after 1H P 1N? Going via Gazzilli doesn't seem crazy, except that most descriptions of it seem to imply that it doesn't contain this sort of hand. </endsnip>

Perhaps I am misunderstanding these posts, but I am glad we agree that 2♣ used in a gazzilli context does not imply a mimimum number of clubs or a maximum number of spades.

[Free]

Quote

<snip> So better is imo to play Gazzilli as 2+♣, </endsnip>

You can easily conclude from the context that this is about the weak version...

Perhaps it would be better if you didn't snip the useful context away and read to the end:

Quote

and 2♦ as (3)4+♦