muiderberg :(
#1
Posted 2011-November-02, 03:11
What should I most look at when I decide between 2M and pass? I used to open 2M natural weak two often with something like x KQT9x Kxxx xxx, obviously this is a fine Muiderberg in any seat/vulnerability, but I often get something like x KJxxx Qxxx xxx, what about this? I hate to think that I will play this hand in a 5-2 fit. Could anyone give me some pointers on when to use it, what suits are good enough? Does your recommendation change if we have 5-5 instead of the minimum promised 5-4? I have an inkling that it shouldn't because you will most often end up in the major suit anyway.
Sorry, I know this question is vague, but maybe someone can help anyway?
(what I do now is I use Muiderberg whenever it is fathomable, leaving aside my gut feeling/judgement because I know that my judgement at the moment is way off)
George Carlin
#2
Posted 2011-November-02, 03:19
My experience is that 5-4 is very different from 5-5 in terms of playing strength , defensive strength , and your chances to locate your best fit. 2M opening is too high to sort out strain and level , if you cant be sure the minor suit is at least 5 cards.
#3
Posted 2011-November-02, 03:24
George Carlin
#4
Posted 2011-November-02, 03:49
To decide whether to open or not with a 5-4, I'd suggest you pretend like it's a weak two with a 6 card suit you want to open. Mentally combine the HCP from your 2 suits into the Major suit, and consider it a 6 card suit. If you'd normally open the hand 2M showing a 6 card suit, then open a Muiderberg.
For example: x-KJxxx-Qxxx-xxx, you consider the hand as a 6331 with KQJxxx. I guess you'll open 2M for sure.
Another example: x-KJxxx-xxxx-Qxx, you consider the hand as a 6331 with KJxxxx and a side suit Qxx. I guess it will depend on the vulnerability if you open or not.
(Remark: don't modify the amount of singletons/voids. If you have a 5431, handle it like 6331 ; if you have a 5422, handle it like a 6322 ; if you have a 5440, don't open!)
With a 5-5 it's pretty much always a good idea to open when you have some amount of HCP in your 2 suits. x-Axxxx-Jxxxx-xx can already be enough.
Where in the Netherlands are you? Are you close to Belgium?
#5
Posted 2011-November-02, 04:01
<----------
George Carlin
#6
Posted 2011-November-02, 04:04
(yeah yeah, I know, Groningen is further)
#7
Posted 2011-November-02, 04:28
The last is often overlooked and is often responsible for the bad boards Muiderberg sometimes generates. 2-suited openings and overcalls are declarer's best friend and even low intermediate declarers do ok when they are practically double dummy. Luckily, you probably have enough experience of this from Michaels/UNT/Ghestem to be able to incorporate into your feeling for Muiderberg. My experience has been that against intermediate-advanced players you gain between 0.25 and 0.5 imps per board on average if using the convention correctly. Against better players this is less - some statistics even suggest that at world class level Muiderberg is a nett loser.
One last point since you mentioned playing it with pick-ups. Just because someone (online) says they play Muiderberg does not mean they actually know anything beyond the opening bid! Be circumspect and avoid any responses that might be misinterpreted until they show you they know something. I would expect this to be better with f2f partners in Holland, of course!
#8
Posted 2011-November-02, 05:45
Some Muiderberg notes:
When you play Muiderberg, it's very important to have a system that allows the opener to describe his distribution. Some developments:
After 2S-2NT-3C:
3D = set clubs as trump, game force, ask distribution
3H = own suit, game force, ask for support.
3S = set spades as trump, game force, ask distribution
3NT = to play
4S/5C = to play
4C!! = set spades as trump, ask about quality of suit (not interested in distribution)
After 2S-2NT-3D:
3H = own suit, game force, ask for support
3S = set spades as trump, game force, ask distribution
3NT = to play
4C = set diamonds as trump, game force, ask distribution
4D!! = set spades as trump, ask about quality of suit (not interested in distribution)
After 2S-2NT-3C-3S (distribution ask):
3NT = 4 clubs and no void, bid 4C please
... - 4C:
........ 4D = diamond singleton, 5314
........ 4H = heart singleton, 5134
........ 4S = 2/2 in d/h, 5224
4C = 5 clubs and no void, bid 4D please:
... - 4D:
........ 4H = heart singleton, 5125
........ 4S = diamond singleton, 5215
4D = diamond void, 5 clubs, 5305
4H = heart void, 5 clubs, 5035
4S = heart void, 4 clubs, 5044
There is no 2S opening with 4 hearts in our version of Muiderberg. Similar scheme follows 2S-2NT-3C-3D and 2S-2NT-3D-4C. The goal is to describe all possible distributions BELOW game level in the agreed suit (4S, 5C or 5D respectively).
Similar developments follow 2H - 2NT.
Of course, all asking bids are slam tries.
Here is a hand that I had posted at the time where we had missed slam ( 2S - 4S, all pass )
Using his treatment follows:
North South
K Q x x x ..... A J 10 9 x
x ................. A Q x x
J x x ........... x
A 9 x x ........ K Q 10
2S (1) - 2NT (2)
3C (3) - 3S (4)
3NT (5) - 4C (6)
4H (7) - 4NT (8)
5S (9) - 6S (10)
(1) DISCIPLINED Muiderberg, always upper range when partner is not a passed hand. No need for a min/max question bid and we very rarely give large penalties.
(2) Forcing relay
(3) Clubs
(4) Set trump, game force, ask distribution
(5) No void, relay to 4C
(6) automatic
(7) heart singleton (exactly 5134)
(8) rkcb for the agreed suit (spades)
(9) 2 + the queen
(10) ruff 3 hearts and claim
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#9
Posted 2011-November-02, 05:55
2S - 2NT; 3C as clubs and min with 3H as clubs and max, but you could play
2S - 2NT
========
3C = 4 clubs
3D = 4 diamonds
3H = 5 clubs
3S = 5 diamonds
3NT = 5044
This seems to give you a slight edge over the current structure assuming you have 3C free as pass/correct to play in the minor.
#10
Posted 2011-November-02, 07:15
Zelandakh, on 2011-November-02, 05:55, said:
2S - 2NT; 3C as clubs and min with 3H as clubs and max, but you could play
2S - 2NT
========
3C = 4 clubs
3D = 4 diamonds
3H = 5 clubs
3S = 5 diamonds
3NT = 5044
This seems to give you a slight edge over the current structure assuming you have 3C free as pass/correct to play in the minor.
I had a feeling I might get a " slight optimization".
Let's see how it might work with the example I gave:
North South
K Q x x x ..... A J 10 9 x
x ................. A Q x x
J x x ........... x
A 9 x x ........ K Q 10
2S ( max ) - 2NT!
3C ( 4c ) - 3S ( set trump, asks for shortness )
4H ( 5 1 3 4 ) - 4NT ( RKC ) , etc ... well, in this case we are at the same place ... but one example doesn't prove anything.
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#11
Posted 2011-November-02, 08:28
#12
Posted 2011-November-02, 09:20
People open muiderberg far too often, and if you do, I think it is a long term loser.
- hrothgar
#13
Posted 2011-November-02, 13:00
gwnn, on 2011-November-02, 03:11, said:
At least 'Muiderberg' is easier to pronounce than 'Enschede'.
But to your problem: I would recommend reading Jan van Cleeff's book "Alles wat u altijd wilde weten over DE MUIDERBERGSE TWEE". There are two reasons:
1) Most Dutch players play this style (either because they read the book or because they learned it from someone who read it).
2) It will help you learn the Dutch language.
Welkom in Nederland.
Rik
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
#14
Posted 2011-November-02, 16:15
Trinidad, on 2011-November-02, 13:00, said:
But to your problem: I would recommend reading Jan van Cleeff's book "Alles wat u altijd wilde weten over DE MUIDERBERGSE TWEE".
A classic, one of my favorites
#15
Posted 2011-November-02, 16:20
Zelandakh, on 2011-November-02, 08:28, said:
I was just guessing as to your follow-ups.
I assumed after:
3C( 4c ) - 3S (set trump, asks for shortness )
??
3NT = red suit VOID
........... - 4C! = asks where ;
...................... 4D = 5 3 0 5
...................... 4H = 5 0 3 5
4C = 5 ( 1 2 ) 5
........... - 4D! ( asks again)
...................... 4H = 5 1 2 5
...................... 4S = 5 2 1 5
4D = Diam shortness ( 5 3 1 4 )
4H = Ht shortness ( 5 1 3 4 )
4S = no shortness ( 5 2 2 4 )
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#16
Posted 2011-November-03, 03:38
#17
Posted 2011-November-03, 06:28
Anyway, have a look at Jan van Cleef's book "Muiderbergse Twee". He's got it all written down. It's in dutch, though.
As an aside, if you play muiderberg, you might as well open it with 5-4s. Sticking to 55s only means you'll pass a lot. But opening 5-4s means you're basically playing a disguised 5 cards weak 2. In any case the rules are the same as for any preempt: offensive hand, solid suits, i.e.
x
KQJxx
JT9x
xxx
and not stuff like
x
AJxxx
Kxx
Qxxx
Happy -1100s
#18
Posted 2011-November-03, 07:07
Trinidad, on 2011-November-02, 13:00, said:
But to your problem: I would recommend reading Jan van Cleeff's book "Alles wat u altijd wilde weten over DE MUIDERBERGSE TWEE". There are two reasons:
1) Most Dutch players play this style (either because they read the book or because they learned it from someone who read it).
2) It will help you learn the Dutch language.
Welkom in Nederland.
Rik
Dank je wel Rik I ordered it. Chances are I won't read a lot of it but who knows?
George Carlin
#19
Posted 2011-November-03, 07:08
p-p-2♠-3♥
all vulnerable MP's
with Jxxx xx AQx QTxx, was that ok? I promise I won't post every hand that comes up.
George Carlin
#20
Posted 2011-November-03, 08:35