[gwnn]

I moved to the Netherlands six weeks ago and I have to learn Muiderberg. I will not get a residence permit otherwise. I now manage to pronounce it to the point that people actually understand what I am saying, but I still have a long way to go in deciding when to use it.

What should I most look at when I decide between 2M and pass? I used to open 2M natural weak two often with something like x KQT9x Kxxx xxx, obviously this is a fine Muiderberg in any seat/vulnerability, but I often get something like x KJxxx Qxxx xxx, what about this? I hate to think that I will play this hand in a 5-2 fit. Could anyone give me some pointers on when to use it, what suits are good enough? Does your recommendation change if we have 5-5 instead of the minimum promised 5-4? I have an inkling that it shouldn't because you will most often end up in the major suit anyway.

Sorry, I know this question is vague, but maybe someone can help anyway?

(what I do now is I use Muiderberg whenever it is fathomable, leaving aside my gut feeling/judgement because I know that my judgement at the moment is way off)

[mich-b]

I suggest using this opening only with 5-5 (and not 5-4), except perhaps in 3rd , when you can use it more freely.
My experience is that 5-4 is very different from 5-5 in terms of playing strength , defensive strength , and your chances to locate your best fit. 2M opening is too high to sort out strain and level , if you cant be sure the minor suit is at least 5 cards.

[gwnn]

btw that's also my suspicion but my partner wouldn't agree to that and I think I need to learn it anyway with 5-4 because I might play with pickup partners here etc.

[Free]

Imo it's best when the HCP are primairily located in your 2 suits. NV it's ok to open light, V you need a decent hand. Most important: don't be afraid of playing a 5-2 fit at 2-level.

To decide whether to open or not with a 5-4, I'd suggest you pretend like it's a weak two with a 6 card suit you want to open. Mentally combine the HCP from your 2 suits into the Major suit, and consider it a 6 card suit. If you'd normally open the hand 2M showing a 6 card suit, then open a Muiderberg.
For example: x-KJxxx-Qxxx-xxx, you consider the hand as a 6331 with KQJxxx. I guess you'll open 2M for sure.
Another example: x-KJxxx-xxxx-Qxx, you consider the hand as a 6331 with KJxxxx and a side suit Qxx. I guess it will depend on the vulnerability if you open or not.
(Remark: don't modify the amount of singletons/voids. If you have a 5431, handle it like 6331 ; if you have a 5422, handle it like a 6322 ; if you have a 5440, don't open!)

With a 5-5 it's pretty much always a good idea to open when you have some amount of HCP in your 2 suits. x-Axxxx-Jxxxx-xx can already be enough.

Where in the Netherlands are you? Are you close to Belgium?

[gwnn]

hint:



<----------

[Free]

Pfff, can you get any further away?
(yeah yeah, I know, Groningen is further)

[Zelandakh]

I would argue that your current approach is probably the best way of achieving the feeling you desire so long as you closely analyse the ensuing hands. Really the same things apply as with weak 2s and 2-suited overcalls - honours in your suits are good, honours in short suits are bad; vulnerability matters, probably even more so than with weak 2s; and most of all, only open when you think that the loss of space and/or potential sacrifice is more useful than giving your opponents a roadmap should they declare the hand.

The last is often overlooked and is often responsible for the bad boards Muiderberg sometimes generates. 2-suited openings and overcalls are declarer's best friend and even low intermediate declarers do ok when they are practically double dummy. Luckily, you probably have enough experience of this from Michaels/UNT/Ghestem to be able to incorporate into your feeling for Muiderberg. My experience has been that against intermediate-advanced players you gain between 0.25 and 0.5 imps per board on average if using the convention correctly. Against better players this is less - some statistics even suggest that at world class level Muiderberg is a nett loser.

One last point since you mentioned playing it with pick-ups. Just because someone (online) says they play Muiderberg does not mean they actually know anything beyond the opening bid! Be circumspect and avoid any responses that might be misinterpreted until they show you they know something. I would expect this to be better with f2f partners in Holland, of course!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Eventho I don't play Muiderberg much, I found the following treatment very interesting ( posted on another board in 2002 from a talented player in Poland ):

Some Muiderberg notes:

When you play Muiderberg, it's very important to have a system that allows the opener to describe his distribution. Some developments:

After 2S-2NT-3C:

3D = set clubs as trump, game force, ask distribution
3H = own suit, game force, ask for support.
3S = set spades as trump, game force, ask distribution
3NT = to play
4S/5C = to play
4C!! = set spades as trump, ask about quality of suit (not interested in distribution)

After 2S-2NT-3D:

3H = own suit, game force, ask for support
3S = set spades as trump, game force, ask distribution
3NT = to play
4C = set diamonds as trump, game force, ask distribution
4D!! = set spades as trump, ask about quality of suit (not interested in distribution)

After 2S-2NT-3C-3S (distribution ask):

3NT = 4 clubs and no void, bid 4C please
... - 4C:
........ 4D = diamond singleton, 5314
........ 4H = heart singleton, 5134
........ 4S = 2/2 in d/h, 5224
4C = 5 clubs and no void, bid 4D please:
... - 4D:
........ 4H = heart singleton, 5125
........ 4S = diamond singleton, 5215
4D = diamond void, 5 clubs, 5305
4H = heart void, 5 clubs, 5035
4S = heart void, 4 clubs, 5044

There is no 2S opening with 4 hearts in our version of Muiderberg. Similar scheme follows 2S-2NT-3C-3D and 2S-2NT-3D-4C. The goal is to describe all possible distributions BELOW game level in the agreed suit (4S, 5C or 5D respectively).

Similar developments follow 2H - 2NT.

Of course, all asking bids are slam tries.

Here is a hand that I had posted at the time where we had missed slam ( 2S - 4S, all pass )
Using his treatment follows:

North South
K Q x x x ..... A J 10 9 x
x ................. A Q x x
J x x ........... x
A 9 x x ........ K Q 10

2S (1) - 2NT (2)
3C (3) - 3S (4)
3NT (5) - 4C (6)
4H (7) - 4NT (8)
5S (9) - 6S (10)

(1) DISCIPLINED Muiderberg, always upper range when partner is not a passed hand. No need for a min/max question bid and we very rarely give large penalties.
(2) Forcing relay
(3) Clubs
(4) Set trump, game force, ask distribution
(5) No void, relay to 4C
(6) automatic
(7) heart singleton (exactly 5134)
(8) rkcb for the agreed suit (spades)
(9) 2 + the queen
(10) ruff 3 hearts and claim

[Zelandakh]

Don, since you do not need a min-max step in your 2NT relay, perhaps it would not be a bad idea to start showing distribution immediately. For example I play
2S - 2NT; 3C as clubs and min with 3H as clubs and max, but you could play

2S - 2NT
========
3C = 4 clubs
3D = 4 diamonds
3H = 5 clubs
3S = 5 diamonds
3NT = 5044

This seems to give you a slight edge over the current structure assuming you have 3C free as pass/correct to play in the minor.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-November-02, 05:55, said:

Don, since you do not need a min-max step in your 2NT relay, perhaps it would not be a bad idea to start showing distribution immediately. For example I play
2S - 2NT; 3C as clubs and min with 3H as clubs and max, but you could play

2S - 2NT
========
3C = 4 clubs
3D = 4 diamonds
3H = 5 clubs
3S = 5 diamonds
3NT = 5044

This seems to give you a slight edge over the current structure assuming you have 3C free as pass/correct to play in the minor.

I had a feeling I might get a " slight optimization".
Let's see how it might work with the example I gave:

North     South
K Q x x x ..... A J 10 9 x
x ................. A Q x x
J x x ........... x
A 9 x x ........ K Q 10

2S ( max ) - 2NT!
3C ( 4c ) - 3S ( set trump, asks for shortness )
4H ( 5 1 3 4 ) - 4NT ( RKC ) , etc ... well, in this case we are at the same place ... but one example doesn't prove anything.

[Zelandakh]

Over 3S, wouldn't you just play either 3NT = 5224, 4C = 5134, 4D = 5314 or 3NT = 5134, 4C = 5224, 4D = 5314 depending on your relay rules? Depending on whether you apply zoom or not you are now 1 or 2 steps better off. Out of interest what do you use 3D and 3H as over 3C? One option would be to use one of these for shape relays and 3S just to agree spades and start a cue auction. Of course you cannot do this if you need the other bids for something more important.

[han]

I play that vulnerable it shows 5-5, and non-vulnerable I don't open it on as many hands as some others do. With 5422 distribution nonvulnerable I will only do it very rarely, with 5431 I will have to like my hand.

People open muiderberg far too often, and if you do, I think it is a long term loser.

[Trinidad]

 gwnn, on 2011-November-02, 03:11, said:

I moved to the Netherlands six weeks ago and I have to learn Muiderberg. I will not get a residence permit otherwise. I now manage to pronounce it to the point that people actually understand what I am saying, but I still have a long way to go in deciding when to use it.

At least 'Muiderberg' is easier to pronounce than 'Enschede'.

But to your problem: I would recommend reading Jan van Cleeff's book "Alles wat u altijd wilde weten over DE MUIDERBERGSE TWEE". There are two reasons:
1) Most Dutch players play this style (either because they read the book or because they learned it from someone who read it).
2) It will help you learn the Dutch language.

Welkom in Nederland.

Rik

[JLOGIC]

 Trinidad, on 2011-November-02, 13:00, said:

But to your problem: I would recommend reading Jan van Cleeff's book "Alles wat u altijd wilde weten over DE MUIDERBERGSE TWEE".

A classic, one of my favorites

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-November-02, 08:28, said:

Over 3S, wouldn't you just play either 3NT = 5224, 4C = 5134, 4D = 5314 or 3NT = 5134, 4C = 5224, 4D = 5314 depending on your relay rules? Depending on whether you apply zoom or not you are now 1 or 2 steps better off. Out of interest what do you use 3D and 3H as over 3C? One option would be to use one of these for shape relays and 3S just to agree spades and start a cue auction. Of course you cannot do this if you need the other bids for something more important.

I was just guessing as to your follow-ups.

I assumed after:
3C( 4c ) - 3S (set trump, asks for shortness )
??
3NT = red suit VOID
........... - 4C! = asks where ;
...................... 4D = 5 3 0 5
...................... 4H = 5 0 3 5


4C = 5 ( 1 2 ) 5
........... - 4D! ( asks again)
...................... 4H = 5 1 2 5
...................... 4S = 5 2 1 5

4D = Diam shortness ( 5 3 1 4 )
4H = Ht shortness ( 5 1 3 4 )
4S = no shortness ( 5 2 2 4 )

[Zelandakh]

If the 2S opening shows exactly 5 spades and denies 4 hearts, and the 3C rebid shows exactly 4 clubs and denies 4 diamonds, then the only possible shapes are 5224, 4134 and 5314. If I played it this way and chose to use 3S as a shape ask then I would probably use 3NT = 5224, 4C = 5134, 4D = 5314 and 1 key card, 4H = 5314 and 0 key cards, 4S = 5314 and 2 key cards or something of this nature. As it happens I don't - I just took mostly "out of the box" responses. However I have 2S - 3H as a good raise in spades which covers the cue auction so it would actually make alot of sense if I added some relays after 2S - 2NT; 3m. This is not an area of the system I spent alot of time with so is probably past due that I did...

[whereagles]

Scheveningen is the worst. They caught spies in WWII by asking people to pronounce that word LOL.

Anyway, have a look at Jan van Cleef's book "Muiderbergse Twee". He's got it all written down. It's in dutch, though.

As an aside, if you play muiderberg, you might as well open it with 5-4s. Sticking to 55s only means you'll pass a lot. But opening 5-4s means you're basically playing a disguised 5 cards weak 2. In any case the rules are the same as for any preempt: offensive hand, solid suits, i.e.

x
KQJxx
JT9x
xxx

and not stuff like

x
AJxxx
Kxx
Qxxx

Happy -1100s

[gwnn]

 Trinidad, on 2011-November-02, 13:00, said:

At least 'Muiderberg' is easier to pronounce than 'Enschede'.

But to your problem: I would recommend reading Jan van Cleeff's book "Alles wat u altijd wilde weten over DE MUIDERBERGSE TWEE". There are two reasons:
1) Most Dutch players play this style (either because they read the book or because they learned it from someone who read it).
2) It will help you learn the Dutch language.

Welkom in Nederland.

Rik

Dank je wel Rik I ordered it. Chances are I won't read a lot of it but who knows?

[gwnn]

Yesterday I bid 4♠ after

p-p-2♠-3♥
all vulnerable MP's

with Jxxx xx AQx QTxx, was that ok? I promise I won't post every hand that comes up.

[Free]

I would just bid 3♠