[Antrax]

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I'm not very good with constructing hands and I don't remember the real one where this came up. Generally I'm interested in the situation where bidding is opened on my left, partner passes, RHO makes a simple raise, and I have a hand I want to compete with, but without T/O double shape. So this could be a hand like the above, or 4-4 majors when opponents open and raise a minor suit, etc. The minors case is probably harder because I can't just agree "ELC" or something of the sort.
So, is there a way to compete with such hands? If 2NT is the bid I'm looking for, what does a strong NT with good heart stoppers do when the bidding goes the same way?

[ArtK78]

You have two real choices: Pass and 2NT.

Pass would be the normal action on this hand, since you can't make a takeout double without spades and you don't have a minor suit you can overcall at the 3 level.

If you must compete, your only real option is 2NT for the minors. Obviously, this is not a classic unusual 2NT. But at least it gets you into the auction.

What would you bid with a strong NT hand in this position? Again, you have two choices: Pass and double. If you double, you will bid 2NT over a 2♠ response by partner, and you will have to decide what to do if partner bids 3 of a minor.

[aguahombre]

If we should be competing with that one, partner will do so in the passout seat. If he doubles, we can scramble for the right minor with 2NT. If partner has two or less hearts and doesn't balance, he has a real dog and they have missed something. He knows, too that it is usually not a good idea to let them play peacefully in 2M.

He won't balance with 2S, having not overcalled 1S the first time, unless you have some kind of agreement that it shows some weak 4-6 hand (not a B/I possibility).

[BunnyGo]

Aguahombre has exactly the right idea. It is generally the responsibility of the person who is short in the opponents' trump suit to stretch to compete. If you had a third spade and doubleton heart, then you might have to stretch a little harder and double, because your partner likely has 3 hearts and won't be able to easily compete.

[the_clown]

I do not see any reason to get in the action. If it goes pass pass, partner will surely balance, and I will be happy to play 2♠ (partner can have 5 ♠ and was too weak to overcall or his suit was too bad) or 3 of minor. If I bid now I am telling the oponents that I have all the points and the most of my distribution. This information may help declarer in 4♥, should they bid it. If partner does not balance, this means that he will surely have 3 and I will be happy to defend 2♥. Besides bidding now has a bid risk for writing -500/800 since my spots in the minors are awful and it is likely that I get only 1 or 2 trump tricks........

[Foxx]

Pass, but only because we have three hearts. Let partner, who has the short hearts, come back in.

[han]

People, get out of that box.

Everybody is white, we have three small hearts, partner didn't overcall 1S and has at most 2 hearts so we are very likely to have at least an 8-card minor suit fit. If we know that it is right to compete, why wait for partner to make that decision? Partner might be looking at a filthy hand such as Kxx Qx Jxxxx Kxx. Should he reopen with that?

I agree that generally we should pass with this shape, but here I'd bid 2NT for the minors.

With a 1NT opening you can pass or double. After 1M - p - 2M it is unlikely that you'll make a game based only on HCP. Get used to passing with shapes that don't call for competing, even when you have a lot of points.

[BunnyGo]

sigh...if I didn't say what Han did it means I got this one wrong.

[wyman]

This is interesting.

Han, do you have firm agreements about what 2N promises and when? I agree that this is a hand on which we want to compete in the minors, but I have concerns about partner's understanding about my shape when he has to make a decision over:

(1H) P (2H) 2N
(4H) ?

So (1X) - (2X) 2N shows 4+/4+ in the lowest unbids?
What about (1S) - (1N) 2N?
(1S) (2X) 2N?

At all colors? At all forms of scoring?

Just curious what your agreements and style are.

[BunnyGo]

han, on 2011-August-31, 05:57, said:

People, get out of that box.
...
I agree that generally we should pass with this shape, but here I'd bid 2NT for the minors.

Just to stress a little (since this is the B/I forums) that the "rule" is to pass in a situation like this, since partner can be counted on to reopen with short hearts if you want to be competing. What Han is (correctly) pointing out is that good players know when to break the rules, and this is one of those times. For B/I it's important to learn the rules too.

[han]

I don't have clear agreements on what 2NT shows, but if it seems right then I like to compete when the opponents have bid and raised a major. Generally the responsibility to compete lies with the player who has playing strength or the player with shortness in their suit. However, as has been noted by some bridge writers that I have forgotten, when the opponents have shown a fit, it is often the player with length that is in the best position to judge whether to compete. For example, should you hold KQ10x, you know that it is likely right to defend, but should you hold xxxx then it is almost never right to defend 2M. It can be right to double 2H for takeout holding a 3-4-3-3 shape, but you would need to hold a pretty strong hand (otherwise you can rely on partner to double when it is right to compete).

Colors are very important, at all white one should be very agressive. Note that this is not true for sacrificing over games, where it is best to be white against red. When competing for the partscore, all white is best.

I like to overcall 1M quite aggressively, especially not vulnerable. If partner doesn't bid 1S over 1H, he probably doesn't have 5 spades (though of course this is far from certain).

The general goal is to compete over 2M when the opponents have bid and raised. If the opponents then bid 3M or higher, we should usually let them play there.

Showing a 2-suiter when the opponents have not bid and raised a suit is completely different, I don't do this without 5-5.

[han]

I just write what I would do and why, you guys have way too much faith in my opinion. Surely one of the hot shots is going to tell me that 2NT on this hand is lunacy.

However:

BunnyGo, on 2011-August-31, 07:45, said:

For B/I it's important to learn the rules too.

For bridge players it is important to think as well!

[cherdano]

Since I want to post like an expert, I first have to ask what the form of scoring is. But I would bid 2NT both at IMPs and MPs. (I assume Han was assuming IMPs, otherwise his opinion may have been less restraint.)

[han]

Excellent self-reference Arend, I see I missed out on a lot of great advice!

Let me clarify to those who posted in this thread earlier (sadly I forgot their names) that to true experts 2NT is obvious on this hand. If there is one thing I remember from my many bridge discussions with Eric and Jeff, it is to bid one more with three small in their suit. If this is new to you, I recommend the beginners books on the law of total tricks written by my friend Larry.

[aguahombre]

han, on 2011-August-31, 08:38, said:

Excellent self-reference Arend, I see I missed out on a lot of great advice!

Let me clarify to those who posted in this thread earlier (sadly I forgot their names) that to true experts 2NT is obvious on this hand. If there is one thing I remember from my many bridge discussions with Eric and Jeff, it is to bid one more with three small in their suit. If this is new to you, I recommend the beginners books on the law of total tricks written by my friend Larry.

And, maybe we less-than-true-experts who didn't get busy from this side of the table would get lucky. We would break even when:

1--partner reopens with (say) double and we scramble to the 4-4 minor suit fit.
2--The opponents bid on and nothing mattered (before pard could balance or after).

Or we gain when the opponents bid on and misguess the play because our silence did not help them place the minor suit and spade cards.

Of course we would lose when partner fell asleep and didn't reopen from his side; this is less likely to happen than the opponent have fallen asleep and forgotten to bid game.

I try to avoid making calls or plays which are unlikely to gain and could lose. But, I am not an expert and don't always recognize when those situations are occurring.

[han]

aguahombre, on 2011-August-31, 11:16, said:

Or we gain when the opponents bid on and misguess the play because our silence did not help them place the minor suit and spade cards.

Surely if the opponents bid on anyway we would prefer to have bid 2NT so that partner leads a minor.

You are able to mention cases where we break even in a tone that suggests the passers would be better off. No wonder you usually end up passing on this forum.